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Author Topic:   Why is Faith a Virtue?
Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 294 (334432)
07-22-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
07-22-2006 10:22 PM


OK. That's an amazing concession as a matter of fact. A first I think. At least I can't think of anybody else on the opposing side who has ever acknowledged that there is evidence on the creationist side.
It is not as big as a concession as you may think.
Maybe I should digress a little here. I see the bible as evidence. Just not good or scientific evidence. The sock missing from my last laundry load is evidence of the Flaying Speghetti Monster (he raptured it), but it is not good evidence.
And that is not the type of evidence that I was referring to in my first post. I meant scientific evidence.
Yes, let's stay on topic. I'm thinking of a way to respond to jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 07-22-2006 10:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 17 of 294 (334433)
07-22-2006 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-22-2006 10:31 PM


Hi Sis,
Just back from a week in secular-land. I thought it would never end.
But I did get a good tan at least

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-22-2006 10:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 294 (334437)
07-22-2006 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by iano
07-22-2006 10:26 PM


respect the straw man
For my own part I can't remember asking anybody to respect my faith here or anywhere else.
Do you ask others to believe it?
Faith said:
Dawkins gave a straw man picture of faith based on blind tradition. Silly really.
Why is it a straw man?
I am absolutely certain that if nobody had heard of christ or christianity up until this point, and you happened accross the new testament, you would not believe it.
Edited by Chief Infidel, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by iano, posted 07-22-2006 10:26 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 07-22-2006 11:32 PM Chief Infidel has replied
 Message 27 by iano, posted 07-23-2006 10:03 AM Chief Infidel has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 19 of 294 (334439)
07-22-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by AnswersInGenitals
07-22-2006 10:03 PM


Yes. I think that the continuing functioning and reproduction of living organisms when consciously expressed is what we mean by faith. All living organisms could be described as living in faith. A bacteria multiplies in "the faith" that it there will be sufficient food, etc. Same with humans. We don't know but we go on.
Then there is the codifying of faith by what Berman terms the SAC, the Sacred Authority Complex. Here shamen, priests, etc. take charge of faith and use it to bolster their position, or that of the cultural authority, King, High Priest, etc. Then it's not enough to have faith, you must have faith in the authority. Faith itself is inherent. The co option of faith by the SAC was a development in human culture.
lfen

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 294 (334441)
07-22-2006 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chief Infidel
07-22-2006 10:46 PM


Re: respect the straw man
For my own part I can't remember asking anybody to respect my faith here or anywhere else.
Do you ask others to believe it?
I don't ask them to respect the strength of my faith. Isn't that the topic?
Faith said:
Dawkins gave a straw man picture of faith based on blind tradition. Silly really.
Why is it a straw man?
Because nobody can have faith based on blind tradition.
I am absolutely certain that if nobody had heard of christ or christianity up until this point, and you happened accross the new testiment, you would not believe it.
Overall you are probably right but don't be "absolutely certain" about that. It can be a pretty riveting read for someone who has never heard of it before. I am aware of at least one striking case where someone happened to read just a few verses in Matthew and became a believer (and I don't think this is unique, I just can't think of other examples). In this case the person was a young KGB agent in the Soviet Union in the late 60s who had the job of breaking up secret Christian meetings in private houses, beating up the people, tearing up the Bibles and so on. One time he was threatening an old woman who prayed out loud that God would forgive him. This made him even angrier and he raised his stick to hit her. Before he could, he felt his arm gripped by something and couldn't carry out the swing, though nobody was near him. That scared him. That was probably the most important element in his conversion, but soon after he found a piece of a torn Bible and read it, this fragment from Matthew, and realized what he had been told was false, that these people were not planning to overthrow the government. He became a believer gradually over the next few years but never left his job, then elaborately plotted his defection. He was a navy officer when his ship was near the west coast of Canada and he jumped ship and swam to shore. Had a brief happy time among Canadian Christians but was tracked down and killed by the KGB within a year or so. Good story. Title The Persecutor.
Sorry for the digression but you happened to be wrong about that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-22-2006 10:46 PM Chief Infidel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 12:21 AM Faith has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 21 of 294 (334443)
07-23-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
07-22-2006 9:48 PM


Except, fo course, Richard Dawkins isn't asking for money.
And, IMO, his analysis is spot on.
And I could use a spot of tea right now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 07-22-2006 9:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 294 (334445)
07-23-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
07-22-2006 11:32 PM


Re: respect the straw man
I don't ask them to respect the strength of my faith. Isn't that the topic?
The topic is faith. Is it a virtue? Let’s try to stay on it.
Do you ask people to believe your faith or not? If you ask them to believe it, you are asking them to respect it.
Because nobody can have faith based on blind tradition.
Why not? Why have you shoehorned the word “blind” in there?
People can have faith based on tradition. This is fact. Dawkins’s argument was not that faith in the teapot was based only on tradition, but authority as well. And if faith is not based on tradition and authority, how can we explain that the biggest predictor of one’s faith is the faith of their parents? Is it just a coincidence that different religions encompass different areas? For example, we have protestants in Northern Ireland, and catholics in the south.
Please explain to me why it was a straw man. I may not be as smart as you, I need things in easily understood terms.
Overall you are probably right but don't be "absolutely certain" about that. It can be a pretty riveting read for someone who has never heard of it before. I am aware of at least one striking case where someone happened to read just a few verses in Matthew and became a believer (and I don't think this is unique, I just can't think of other examples). In this case the person was a young KJB agent in the Soviet Union in the late 60s who had the job of breaking up secret Christian meetings in private houses, beating up the people, tearing up the Bibles and so on. One time he was threatening old woman who prayed out loud that God would forgive him. This made him even angrier and he raised his stick to hit her. Before he could, he felt his arm gripped by something and couldn't carry out the swing, though nobody was near him. That scared him. That was probably the most important element in his conversion, but soon after he found a piece of a torn Bible and read it, this fragment from Matthew, and realized what he had been told was false, that these people were not planning to overthrow the government. He became a believer gradually over the next few years but never left his job, then elaborately plotted his defection. He was a navy officer when his ship was near the west coast of Canada and he jumped ship and swam to shore. Had a brief happy time among Canadian Christians but was tracked down and killed by the KGB within a year or so. Good story. Title The Persecutor.
Sorry for the digression but you happened to be wrong about that.
I do not see how I was wrong at all. Your story fails to address what I said for two reasons. I said that I am absolutely certain that if nobody had heard of christ or christianity up until this point, and you happened across the new testament, you would not believe it.
In your story, the KGB naval officer (?) already heard of christianity - his job was to dismantle it. In my hypo, you had not heard of christianity. Second, he did not just happen across the new testament. There was divine intervention. How can anyone who experiences such personal revelation or divine intervention call what they believe faith?
Again. Let’s get back to the topic. Is faith a virtue? Why?
Let’s talk for a moment about times when faith is not a virtue. Here are some examples:
Jonestown.
Doe Applewhite’s group having faith in catching a ride on the spaceship behind the Halle Bop comet.
Men flying 767’s into the side of sky scrapers.
I say that faith is NOT a virtue. Why do you think it is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 07-22-2006 11:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 1:42 AM Chief Infidel has replied
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 07-23-2006 11:24 AM Chief Infidel has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 294 (334447)
07-23-2006 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Chief Infidel
07-23-2006 12:21 AM


Re: respect the straw man
Because nobody can have faith based on blind tradition.
======
Why not? Why have you shoehorned the word “blind” in there?
Nobodfy can have faith based on tradition. Period.
All the KGB officer knew about Christianity was that he was assigned to harass them. Period. {edit: He'd been told they were enemies of the state}
People disbelieve divine intervention all the time. They refuse to believe it, explain it away. And I did not say his faith was a virtue. I was answering your claim that reading the Bible without knowledge of the religion wouldn't prove anything {edit: meant wouldn't convince anyone}. I believe it was what the Bible said that made him a Christian, not the divine intervention.
I understood the topic to be strong faith IN CHRIST (nothing else, at least as far as it interests me) under adversity. That's the only thing I would claim to be a virtue, and it's only a virtue to Christians, not to anyone else. And it is a virtue to hold onto it under extreme duress, under torture for instance, which has happened a lot in the history of Christianity, under ridicule, which happens quite frequently to any of us who try to spread the gospel, under aggressive ridicule in the claim that we are being "wilfully ignorant" in denying evidence against various Biblical claims for instance. People lose their faith unfortunately frequently under such tests, some as soon as they are confronted with something that pretends to be evidence against faith, or they willingly compromise their faith to accommodate what unbelievers think. That's why it's a virtue to hold onto it, it takes courage.
It may even be a virtue when the belief is false as in the instances you mention, because it does take courage, sad though it is.
But I don't make anything out of this sort of virtue. It doesn't interest me. I find it an unpleasant topic to discuss. I only answered the few things that interested me and don't care to pursue it further.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 12:21 AM Chief Infidel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 2:31 AM Faith has replied

  
Chief Infidel
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 294 (334449)
07-23-2006 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
07-23-2006 1:42 AM


Period?
Nobodfy can have faith based on tradition. Period.
Why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 1:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 8:57 AM Chief Infidel has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 25 of 294 (334464)
07-23-2006 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-22-2006 10:31 PM


quote:
I want to echo Iano's statement that nobody has asked that faith be respected by anybody.
What a selective memory you have, Faith.
You continually expect the US government to give your religious faith special privilages and rights while denying others those same rights.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 294 (334472)
07-23-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Chief Infidel
07-23-2006 2:31 AM


Re: Period?
Nobody can have faith based on tradition. Period.
Why not?
Remember the context is Dawkins' teapot story. His straw man of faith was that it was believed in ONLY because everybody else believed in it. That's not how faith works. You can't truly believe, let alone have the kind of faith that endures scoffing and debunkery and even torture, unless you have personal knowledge of some sort about the thing you believe in, at least a conviction based on historcal facts that testify to its actual existence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 2:31 AM Chief Infidel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ramoss, posted 07-23-2006 1:06 PM Faith has replied
 Message 33 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 1:51 PM Faith has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 27 of 294 (334484)
07-23-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chief Infidel
07-22-2006 10:46 PM


Re: respect the straw man
iano writes:
For my own part I can't remember asking anybody to respect my faith here or anywhere else.
CI writes:
Do you ask others to believe it?
Yes of course I do. But I wouldn't ask them to believe my faith (or respect it). I'd ask them to believe what he says. My function is simply to point them to him (a beggar pointing other beggars to where the food is - as it is oft described). It may be that my faith (in the sense of my certainty) results in someone considering checking out what he says for themselves when they might not have considered it up to that point. In that case they would be demonstrating a certain amount of respect for what I say - but I don't ask it of them. And if they do come to believe what he says then that is a matter between them and him. It's not my faith they would be respecting in so far as it results in them believing him.
If someone does come to believe like I do (ie: we share the same faith in him) then they will have gotten the evidence necessary for them to form that belief from him as I once did. I think it would be irrational to believe something like this if there was no evidence from him. That would be faith in what I or others say. What I would call 'blind belief'. Dodgy territory that.
Why is it a straw man?
I pointed it out in a post above. Dawkins is an empiricist, ie: if you can't stick it in a test tube, prod, poke and measure it then it doesn't count as 'evidence'.
But he cannot verify his thinking empirically or otherwise. His is a philosophy, and a common one. But his philosophy is just one of a great number of philosophies. There is no good reason to suppose he is correct (except to say, "empirically there is no evidence" - which is simply the cry of other empiricists). On the other hand you have millions who testify to a personal relationship with God. Dawkins might suppose as he supposes as to why that is the case - but he is simply speculating according to the tenets of his philosophy.
The strawman is to suppose empiricism is the only way to garner evidence about things then demolish God because the evidence for him isn't classically empirical
I am absolutely certain that if nobody had heard of christ or christianity up until this point, and you happened across the new testament, you would not believe it.
Well we cannot know that, for it is as we find it. You cannot be absolutely certain of something which is impossible to test the certainty of. Your faith is blind
The reason someone believes is not that they have heard of Christianity or read the NT in the first instance. The primary reason why someone believes is because God brings them to the point of being able to. Like I say, believing something for which you have no evidence would be irrational (or something else).
In order to be certain one would need evidence of the very highest order. This I have and I just tell others about where/how to find it.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-22-2006 10:46 PM Chief Infidel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by RickJB, posted 07-23-2006 11:24 AM iano has replied
 Message 34 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 2:08 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 28 of 294 (334485)
07-23-2006 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ramoss
07-23-2006 12:03 AM


Except, fo course, Richard Dawkins isn't asking for money.
And, IMO, his analysis is spot on.
I'm sure his profile helps him sell his books. Don't you think?
His analysis is spot on - according to empiricist dogma. A made-to-measure analysis in other words

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by nator, posted 07-23-2006 5:06 PM iano has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 294 (334498)
07-23-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Chief Infidel
07-23-2006 12:21 AM


Re: respect the straw man
Its interesting how, when people such as Dawkins use comparitive symbolism, they always use a symbol of a basic material object that man can conceive...(a diamond or a teapot)
Dawkins seems to believe that freedom to reason and conclude is mans most precious resource. While stopping short of equating this with "ye shall be as gods..." I will point out that for believers, God pre-existed all human rationality, so we cannot imagine a teapot analogy.
I will agree that religion is a manipulative opiate, of sorts.
I will say that for believers, faith in an origin that is higher and grander than human wisdom can be a virtue...depending on the effects upon the life of that believer.
Dawkins strong atheism is a virtue as far as it goes...except when he tries to convert the masses. At least he believes strongly in something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Chief Infidel, posted 07-23-2006 12:21 AM Chief Infidel has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 30 of 294 (334499)
07-23-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by iano
07-23-2006 10:03 AM


Re: respect the straw man
iano writes:
The primary reason why someone believes is because God brings them to the point of being able to.
So you believe in God because you have evidence. But to get the evidence you have to believe in God!!
Sounds like a scam to me.
Ever read "Kissing Hank's Ass"?
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by iano, posted 07-23-2006 10:03 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 07-23-2006 11:28 AM RickJB has replied
 Message 50 by iano, posted 07-23-2006 8:24 PM RickJB has not replied

  
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