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Author Topic:   Iran hangs 16 year old girl: Sharia at work.
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 46 of 61 (335663)
07-27-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by iano
07-26-2006 7:09 PM


Re: Old Testament
p.s. Allah doesn't exist
Try telling that to a Christian Arab

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by iano, posted 07-26-2006 7:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 61 (335665)
07-27-2006 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Modulous
07-27-2006 7:52 AM


Re: Old Testament
Or try a Christian arab telling that...

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 Message 46 by Modulous, posted 07-27-2006 7:52 AM Modulous has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 61 (335668)
07-27-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by mark24
07-27-2006 7:50 AM


Re: Old Testament
And Muslims know Allah exists, therefore no Xian god.
Unlike God, Allah is not personal. In the sense: he does not relate to individuals personally. I suggest that the only way a person could know whether God exists is if he related and interacted with them personally. Which is why I know God exists and why a person believes (not knows) Allah exists. Your comparing apples and pears.
But the fact is neither of you know anything of the sort.
Fact? I can know he exists (all he has to do is exist and let me know that fact). You cannot know he doesn't - although you may have an opinion. It doesn't resolve anything much but it is worth pointing out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mark24, posted 07-27-2006 7:50 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Legend, posted 07-27-2006 8:23 AM iano has replied
 Message 50 by mark24, posted 07-27-2006 8:57 AM iano has not replied
 Message 61 by RickJB, posted 07-28-2006 3:33 AM iano has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 49 of 61 (335671)
07-27-2006 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
07-27-2006 8:11 AM


who told you so?
iano writes:
Fact? I can know he exists (all he has to do is exist and let me know that fact).
how do you know it's the Christian God that lets you know he exists and not the Devil reinforcing your misguided belief in a vengeful, petty God that corrupts the teachings of Jesus and ,therefore, ultimately harms Christianity ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 8:11 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 10:21 AM Legend has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 50 of 61 (335678)
07-27-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
07-27-2006 8:11 AM


Re: Old Testament
iano,
Unlike God, Allah is not personal.
He contacted you...
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 51 of 61 (335684)
07-27-2006 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by iano
07-27-2006 7:39 AM


Re: Old Testament
Maybe someone should follow you around and point out when you repeat the same unsupported baloney.
iano writes:
He will work to convince you that the wrong you do is actually wrong (without revealing himself to be the source of the absolutedness of morals just yet - that would interfere with you free will to reject his attempt).
I am willing to accept Biblical support for your statement. Please provide something to support your assertion that God revealing himself in an irrefutable way causes us to lose our free will.
This is off-topic as is the rest of your statement so I will comment no further about that.
On-topic: I believe the hanging would be a travesty of justice. I also see this as a result of those in power protecting their buddies or the reputation of the security force. I certainly don't see it as caused by the dictates of the Koran. These are my first impressions and only opinion so I don't really have support for them. It just seems like the same-ol' same-ol'...those in power getting away with acts that they decry and "taking care" of those who protest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 7:39 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 61 (335686)
07-27-2006 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Legend
07-27-2006 8:23 AM


Re: who told you so?
how do you know it's the Christian God that lets you know he exists and not the Devil reinforcing your misguided belief in a vengeful, petty God that corrupts the teachings of Jesus and ,therefore, ultimately harms Christianity ?
Quite how it is you read the Bible is not known to me Legend. It seems you take out the bits that speak of Gods wrath and leave in the bits that deal with his love.
Vengence is not petty. It is paying someone back for a wrong they have done to you. Or you can forgive them. Either is a possibility. Saved gets forgivness, unsaved gets vengence. Whats the problem? Is there no hell and no heaven, no sheep no goats?
How many pages are left in your Bible?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Legend, posted 07-27-2006 8:23 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Legend, posted 07-27-2006 10:33 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 53 of 61 (335689)
07-27-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by LinearAq
07-27-2006 10:13 AM


Re: Old Testament
Maybe someone should follow you around and point out when you repeat the same unsupported baloney
It was supported by logical argument based on some fairly simple biblical principles. You might deal with the argument already given rather than evade by asking for another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by LinearAq, posted 07-27-2006 10:13 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by LinearAq, posted 07-27-2006 12:31 PM iano has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 54 of 61 (335692)
07-27-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
07-27-2006 10:21 AM


Re: who told you so?
ok, we're digressing so let me rephrase this :
How do you know that it's the Christian God who's letting you know that the Christian God exists and that it isn't the Devil / Allah / other who's letting you know that the Christian God exists, for their own ulterior purposes ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 10:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 55 of 61 (335697)
07-27-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Legend
07-27-2006 10:33 AM


Re: who told you so?
I don't. The person who relates to me is exactly as described in the Bible. The Bible explains the world in a way that fits perfectly with the way it is. But that could all be a figment of some other gods imagination I suppose. Its just that there is no convincing evidence that this is the case.
I have oft said that I could be wrong about Gods existance - that I could be some character in an alien kids Playstation game. I'll add your suggestion to the list of ways in which I could be wrong

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by lfen, posted 07-27-2006 11:53 AM iano has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 56 of 61 (335699)
07-27-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by mark24
07-27-2006 4:06 AM


Re: Old Testament
I have said as much in the past in these Islam topics which is that it is a pure distraction from the real issues. The hypocricy is important but it is seperate from the issue of Islam. You don't need to attack Christianity to point out the flaws in these demonizations of Islam. They are not internally consistent and I feel that by bringing the argument to Christianty you are merely leaving an important issue on the table; namely that their criticism of Islam as a whole is bogus on the face of it.
All you are doing is putting them on the defensive over something that does not remove the original issue. "So what, Christianity does it too" does not address the fact that their original assumptions are in fact wrong.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 57 of 61 (335706)
07-27-2006 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
07-27-2006 6:08 AM


Re: Old Testament
Simple analogy. One elephant and four blind men results in four conflicting discriptions.
One ultimate reality and millions of fallible human beings results in many confliciting interpretations.
You are conflating your referent and what you call the referent and your concepts of it. "Allah","Jehovah","Siva", are words used to refer to something. The concepts "almighty god", or "ultimate source" are conceived differently.
Muslims as millions of people have done for thousands of years address themselves to a concept of the ultimate. If differs from other major religion's concepts of the ultimate in various particulars.
I suppose when you say Allah doesn't exist and your God does you are saying what you have repeatedly said here which is you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Okay. We knew you believed that as you made it abundantly clear all along.
The process of coming to a belief is something not well understood but is of interest to me.
At this point all we have is people threatening us and everyone who doesn't join them in their religion with hell if we don't accept their version of ultimate reality.
For humans terror is a real experience as is love, joy, hatred. So we could say that ultimate reality has a terrifying aspect as well as more benign aspects. The middle eastern religions tend to stop with this. The ego will be reborn in heaven where there is only one end of the stick, constant pleasure and those that don't agree with the ego go to hell, the other end of the stick. This is still a model based on relative concepts.
lfen

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 58 of 61 (335710)
07-27-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by iano
07-27-2006 11:08 AM


Re: who told you so?
The Bible explains the world in a way that fits perfectly with the way it is. But that could all be a figment of some other gods imagination I suppose.
Specifically, it is the construction of your imagination.
I have oft said that I could be wrong about Gods existance - that I could be some character in an alien kids Playstation game.
You are mistaken in a number of particulars about existence. It would be more accurate to note that the "Playstation game" is actually your brain.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 11:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 59 of 61 (335719)
07-27-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by lfen
07-27-2006 11:53 AM


Re: who told you so?
You are mistaken in a number of particulars about existence. It would be more accurate to note that the "Playstation game" is actually your brain.
And what do I have to suppose I have a brain which stands outside the playstation game?

This message is a reply to:
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 60 of 61 (335729)
07-27-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by iano
07-27-2006 10:25 AM


Re: Old Testament
LinearAq writes:
Maybe someone should follow you around and point out when you repeat the same unsupported baloney
iano writes:
It was supported by logical argument based on some fairly simple biblical principles. You might deal with the argument already given rather than evade by asking for another.
Indeed! I went back and reread your entire post yet failed to see where you supported your contention that God revealing himself to us would remove our free will. At least, I didn't see it there. Most of your post was about the use of disparate seeming coincidences by God to lead the unwitting sinner to Himself (seed-planting analogy, I believe). I also went back to one other place where I confronted you on that contention and did not see any supporting information there either.
I am willing to concede that I may have misconstrued your statement of a previously-proven fact as an unsupported assertion. Do you remember where it was that you supplied or read the Biblical support for the idea? If not, could you write down your best recollection of the supporting information as a reply to this post?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 10:25 AM iano has not replied

  
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