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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 1 of 234 (341152)
08-18-2006 5:02 PM


Many Christians believe in a literal Satan: a spirit being who functions as the enemy of God and tries to ensnare souls. This post is addressed to them.
The purpose of this thread is not to challenge your belief. Rather, it is to explore a possibility I have never heard anyone discuss: What if Satan reformed?
Traditionally he is said to be intelligent ('wily' and 'clever' are the usual adjectives). It is said that he sees his doom coming and, knowing this, he works around the clock to thwart God's purposes in the world.
But surely, being as smart as he is, Satan has given some thought by now to the sheer pointlessness of this exercise. Why work so hard in a lost cause? At the very least, he could take a break. Smarter yet, he could throw in his lot with a merciful God. Why not repent, confess his crimes, and throw himself on God's mercy? He has free will, right? He could do it.
Imagine that Satan has a change of heart and becomes the most holy, angelic, benevolent spirit there is. Instead of putting evil thoughts into people's heads, he starts putting holy thoughts into them. What now?
If you believe in a literal Satan and in free will, this is not ultimately a hypothetical question. You have to admit it as a real possibililty. Satan could switch sides at any time. It could have happened a few hours ago.
What would be the implications?
Here are the questions that have me most curious to know what you think. Feel free to address any others.
1. Would God forgive?
Does God's mercy extend to Satan? If so, Satan is redeemable. If not... why not?
2. Would evil disappear?
Without Satan and his minions causing trouble, would the earth revert to a state of Edenic paradise? Would immorality cease? Would disease, catastrophe, and war disappear? Or would some of these things remain because they come to us from other sources (conquence of the Fall, human free will, desire of God to test us)? If so, which problems would cease and which would continue?
3. How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing?
If you get a holy idea in your head, how would you know if it came to you from the Holy Spirit or from a newly benevolent Lucifer? How much would it matter to you?
4. How would you get the memo?
Christians have gone through centuries with Satan as a tempter and an adversary. If he suddenly put himself on the side of the angels, how would you get the news? What is the source for late-breaking spiritual information of this kind? Would books have to be added to the Bible to bring it up to date?
Thanks. Over to you.

Archer

Replies to this message:
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 Message 78 by Philip, posted 09-13-2006 11:38 PM Archer Opteryx has replied
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Message 2 of 234 (341173)
08-18-2006 6:39 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 234 (341249)
08-19-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
08-18-2006 5:02 PM


IF Satan is a reality.....
Traditionally, many Christians believe that there is an adversary that is of supernatural origin.
Satan - Wikipedia
Here are my personal beliefs on the subject:
  • God and Satan are not dualistic. God never created a fallen Satan yet indirectly foreknew that a freewill Lucifer would choose to become a fallen Satan. Thus, God could easily allow Satan to repent. I don't believe that Satan wants to repent, however. Satan wants to have his own way.
  • In Revelation, there are two key verses that I believe have significance.
    1) Rev 1:8--"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
    2)Rev 17:7-8-- The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
    The way that I interpret these scriptures, (one possibility, anyway) is this:
    God always existed. He is with us now. And He always will exist.
    Satan once was (as Lucifer) is not, (because there is only one God) yet will exist for those who choose his prideful freethinking rebellious reality over submitting to a loving Spirit.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-18-2006 5:02 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

    Replies to this message:
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    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1344 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 4 of 234 (341253)
    08-19-2006 12:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
    08-18-2006 5:02 PM


    as a christian, i believe that evil has to exist in order to validate and make the choice for good mean something. without evil, there can be no free will.
    satan is not so much god's opponent as man's opponent. how could satan even exist without god allowing him to do so?


    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 5 of 234 (341262)
    08-19-2006 1:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
    08-18-2006 5:02 PM


    IF Satan repented
    If Satan were able to change, would he have any desire to do so?
    Lets assume that Satan was allowed to repent. All that would be left is the rebellion within the human heart. You ask if life would be perfect.
    There would probably still be natural disasters. People would be much more willing to help each other, however.
    There would be no wars.
    Humans would be involved in this process, I believe. Satan would have no power that was not given to him. If God foreknew that the devil would repent, it would only be because humans made the effort to repent first, thus stripping the devil of any vessels.
    God only knows how this scenario would play out!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-18-2006 5:02 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-21-2006 2:28 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Archer Opteryx
    Member (Idle past 3598 days)
    Posts: 1811
    From: East Asia
    Joined: 08-16-2006


    Message 6 of 234 (341984)
    08-21-2006 2:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
    08-19-2006 1:49 AM


    Re: IF Satan repented
    Hi, Phat! Thanks for the friendly welcome to EvC earlier.
    You asked:
    If Satan were able to change, would he have any desire to do so?
    As far as being able: any creature with free will would have the option, right?
    As far as having the desire... well, that's the question, really. What if he did?
    He would surely have plenty of incentive. You quoted from Revelation, a book he would know. It describes his present course of action (at least, his 'present' course of action at the time the book was written) as ending badly for him. And he's had two millennia to think it over.

    Archer

    This message is a reply to:
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    Heathen
    Member (Idle past 1284 days)
    Posts: 1067
    From: Brizzle
    Joined: 09-20-2005


    Message 7 of 234 (342802)
    08-23-2006 4:29 PM


    *bump*
    I'm really curious to see some more responses to this from some of the more .. how shall I put it... 'traditional' christians.
    really interesting question.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-24-2006 8:31 AM Heathen has replied

      
    CK
    Member (Idle past 4128 days)
    Posts: 3221
    Joined: 07-04-2004


    Message 8 of 234 (342811)
    08-23-2006 4:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
    08-18-2006 5:02 PM


    How can Satan reform? He's a puppet in the play - if he could reform, it would be in the bible.
    Christian God Concept creates the play and the players - if the script is different to the one presented in the bible, that goes against the currently held view of the christian god concept.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-18-2006 5:02 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

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     Message 9 by Heathen, posted 08-23-2006 4:53 PM CK has replied

      
    Heathen
    Member (Idle past 1284 days)
    Posts: 1067
    From: Brizzle
    Joined: 09-20-2005


    Message 9 of 234 (342817)
    08-23-2006 4:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by CK
    08-23-2006 4:42 PM


    CK writes:
    How can Satan reform? He's a puppet in the play
    so Satan had no free will?
    The bible says he 'choose' to rebel against God. I got the impression that for the sake of this discussion we are asked to accept satan as the character described in the bible. Free will included.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by CK, posted 08-23-2006 4:42 PM CK has replied

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    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 4111 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 10 of 234 (342841)
    08-23-2006 6:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
    08-19-2006 12:36 AM


    Re: IF Satan is a reality.....
    pah phat you should know better! satan is not lucifer, its a mis-translation of the name for venus in the kjv

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Phat, posted 08-19-2006 12:36 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Archer Opteryx
    Member (Idle past 3598 days)
    Posts: 1811
    From: East Asia
    Joined: 08-16-2006


    Message 11 of 234 (342925)
    08-24-2006 8:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Heathen
    08-23-2006 4:29 PM


    Creavolution writes:
    I'm really curious to see some more responses to this from some of the more .. how shall I put it... 'traditional' christians.
    So am I.
    Anyone who regards Satan as a real being has to admit Satan's personal change as a real possibility. You'd expect they would have a lot of ideas about this.

    Archer

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Heathen, posted 08-23-2006 4:29 PM Heathen has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by ringo, posted 08-24-2006 11:27 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
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    CK
    Member (Idle past 4128 days)
    Posts: 3221
    Joined: 07-04-2004


    Message 12 of 234 (342931)
    08-24-2006 9:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Heathen
    08-23-2006 4:53 PM


    but that makes no sense at all - christian god concept exists outside time, he sees both the start and the end at all times. The only reason that satan choices to rebel is because god has created his universe in such a manner that the conditions and the personality of satan converge to make him decide to rebel. if god did not want him to rebel then the conditions would be different. It's impossible for satan to have free will because really cause and effect don't work properly - cause IS effect. God knows all the outcomes and satan would only repent because that is how god stacked the deck.
    in addition, if satan has free will isn't he going to read the bible and attempt to do things differently? Well of course he cannot because he's a puppet in a play. If he could the bible would be wrong and etc etc...
    Edited by CK, : typo

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 13 of 234 (342943)
    08-24-2006 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by CK
    08-24-2006 9:18 AM


    I think Archer wants us to step outside the fundie box for a moment, Charles.
    IF God is real, we are all in the play anyway, so we may as well honestly discuss our feelings about an ultimate authority and an ultimate antagonist.
    To me, thats all Satan is is an antagonist. A temptor. When iron is formed into steel, it is tempored. Temporing makes the metal stronger. Satan---either as a real being or as a vibe peculiar to human nature, is the temporing process that occurs in humans.
    Some won't handle the pressure. Some will. I believe that all ofus can.
    Within the context of Gods dramatic "play" that you mention, I believe that some characters develop while others are insignificant.

    This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 14 of 234 (342957)
    08-24-2006 11:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Archer Opteryx
    08-24-2006 8:31 AM


    Archer Opterix writes:
    Anyone who regards Satan as a real being has to admit Satan's personal change as a real possibility.
    I would suggest that anybody who regards Satan as a real being already "knows" all they need to know. They don't have much interest in what-ifs.
    They probably think questions like "What if Satan reformed?" are Satan-inspired.

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    This message is a reply to:
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    Archer Opteryx
    Member (Idle past 3598 days)
    Posts: 1811
    From: East Asia
    Joined: 08-16-2006


    Message 15 of 234 (342979)
    08-24-2006 12:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
    08-24-2006 10:28 AM


    Within the context of Gods dramatic "play" that you mention, I believe that some characters develop while others are insignificant.
    I'm interested in hearing more about this, Phat, if you don't mind.
    You seem to be suggesting that 'significance' and the ability to 'develop' go hand in hand. Am I understanding that correctly?

    Archer

    This message is a reply to:
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