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Member (Idle past 3598 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What if Satan reformed? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3598 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Many Christians believe in a literal Satan: a spirit being who functions as the enemy of God and tries to ensnare souls. This post is addressed to them.
The purpose of this thread is not to challenge your belief. Rather, it is to explore a possibility I have never heard anyone discuss: What if Satan reformed? Traditionally he is said to be intelligent ('wily' and 'clever' are the usual adjectives). It is said that he sees his doom coming and, knowing this, he works around the clock to thwart God's purposes in the world. But surely, being as smart as he is, Satan has given some thought by now to the sheer pointlessness of this exercise. Why work so hard in a lost cause? At the very least, he could take a break. Smarter yet, he could throw in his lot with a merciful God. Why not repent, confess his crimes, and throw himself on God's mercy? He has free will, right? He could do it. Imagine that Satan has a change of heart and becomes the most holy, angelic, benevolent spirit there is. Instead of putting evil thoughts into people's heads, he starts putting holy thoughts into them. What now? If you believe in a literal Satan and in free will, this is not ultimately a hypothetical question. You have to admit it as a real possibililty. Satan could switch sides at any time. It could have happened a few hours ago. What would be the implications? Here are the questions that have me most curious to know what you think. Feel free to address any others. 1. Would God forgive? Does God's mercy extend to Satan? If so, Satan is redeemable. If not... why not? 2. Would evil disappear? Without Satan and his minions causing trouble, would the earth revert to a state of Edenic paradise? Would immorality cease? Would disease, catastrophe, and war disappear? Or would some of these things remain because they come to us from other sources (conquence of the Fall, human free will, desire of God to test us)? If so, which problems would cease and which would continue? 3. How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing? If you get a holy idea in your head, how would you know if it came to you from the Holy Spirit or from a newly benevolent Lucifer? How much would it matter to you? 4. How would you get the memo? Christians have gone through centuries with Satan as a tempter and an adversary. If he suddenly put himself on the side of the angels, how would you get the news? What is the source for late-breaking spiritual information of this kind? Would books have to be added to the Bible to bring it up to date? Thanks. Over to you. Archer
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Traditionally, many Christians believe that there is an adversary that is of supernatural origin.
Satan - Wikipedia Here are my personal beliefs on the subject:
1) Rev 1:8--"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." 2)Rev 17:7-8-- The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. The way that I interpret these scriptures, (one possibility, anyway) is this:God always existed. He is with us now. And He always will exist. Satan once was (as Lucifer) is not, (because there is only one God) yet will exist for those who choose his prideful freethinking rebellious reality over submitting to a loving Spirit.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
as a christian, i believe that evil has to exist in order to validate and make the choice for good mean something. without evil, there can be no free will.
satan is not so much god's opponent as man's opponent. how could satan even exist without god allowing him to do so?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If Satan were able to change, would he have any desire to do so?
Lets assume that Satan was allowed to repent. All that would be left is the rebellion within the human heart. You ask if life would be perfect. There would probably still be natural disasters. People would be much more willing to help each other, however. There would be no wars. Humans would be involved in this process, I believe. Satan would have no power that was not given to him. If God foreknew that the devil would repent, it would only be because humans made the effort to repent first, thus stripping the devil of any vessels. God only knows how this scenario would play out!
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3598 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Hi, Phat! Thanks for the friendly welcome to EvC earlier.
You asked: If Satan were able to change, would he have any desire to do so? As far as being able: any creature with free will would have the option, right? As far as having the desire... well, that's the question, really. What if he did? He would surely have plenty of incentive. You quoted from Revelation, a book he would know. It describes his present course of action (at least, his 'present' course of action at the time the book was written) as ending badly for him. And he's had two millennia to think it over. Archer
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
*bump*
I'm really curious to see some more responses to this from some of the more .. how shall I put it... 'traditional' christians. really interesting question.
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CK Member (Idle past 4128 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
How can Satan reform? He's a puppet in the play - if he could reform, it would be in the bible.
Christian God Concept creates the play and the players - if the script is different to the one presented in the bible, that goes against the currently held view of the christian god concept.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
CK writes:
so Satan had no free will? How can Satan reform? He's a puppet in the play The bible says he 'choose' to rebel against God. I got the impression that for the sake of this discussion we are asked to accept satan as the character described in the bible. Free will included.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4111 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
pah phat you should know better! satan is not lucifer, its a mis-translation of the name for venus in the kjv
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3598 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Creavolution writes:
I'm really curious to see some more responses to this from some of the more .. how shall I put it... 'traditional' christians. So am I. Anyone who regards Satan as a real being has to admit Satan's personal change as a real possibility. You'd expect they would have a lot of ideas about this. Archer
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CK Member (Idle past 4128 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
but that makes no sense at all - christian god concept exists outside time, he sees both the start and the end at all times. The only reason that satan choices to rebel is because god has created his universe in such a manner that the conditions and the personality of satan converge to make him decide to rebel. if god did not want him to rebel then the conditions would be different. It's impossible for satan to have free will because really cause and effect don't work properly - cause IS effect. God knows all the outcomes and satan would only repent because that is how god stacked the deck.
in addition, if satan has free will isn't he going to read the bible and attempt to do things differently? Well of course he cannot because he's a puppet in a play. If he could the bible would be wrong and etc etc... Edited by CK, : typo
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I think Archer wants us to step outside the fundie box for a moment, Charles.
IF God is real, we are all in the play anyway, so we may as well honestly discuss our feelings about an ultimate authority and an ultimate antagonist. To me, thats all Satan is is an antagonist. A temptor. When iron is formed into steel, it is tempored. Temporing makes the metal stronger. Satan---either as a real being or as a vibe peculiar to human nature, is the temporing process that occurs in humans. Some won't handle the pressure. Some will. I believe that all ofus can. Within the context of Gods dramatic "play" that you mention, I believe that some characters develop while others are insignificant.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Archer Opterix writes: Anyone who regards Satan as a real being has to admit Satan's personal change as a real possibility. I would suggest that anybody who regards Satan as a real being already "knows" all they need to know. They don't have much interest in what-ifs. They probably think questions like "What if Satan reformed?" are Satan-inspired. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3598 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Within the context of Gods dramatic "play" that you mention, I believe that some characters develop while others are insignificant. I'm interested in hearing more about this, Phat, if you don't mind. You seem to be suggesting that 'significance' and the ability to 'develop' go hand in hand. Am I understanding that correctly? Archer
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