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Author Topic:   The Barbarity of Christianity (as compared to Islam)
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3450 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 197 of 299 (337340)
08-02-2006 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by inkorrekt
08-01-2006 11:29 PM


Re: setting the record straight
What do you read in Surah 33-35?
Have you ever actually read the passages? Or have you just trusted some religious leader's interpretation?
How about a little exercise where I go through the passages that could be interpreted as a call to violence against "infidels" and compare them to passages in the Bible. I already know that some here will present some excuses as to why the Bible passages should not be interpreted in this negative way or that the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus negates these passages somehow, but that is not the point. The point is that you as a Christian cannot possibly have the right or knowledge to interpret Quranic texts for the Muslims, just like you would say that I as an atheist do not have the right or knowledge to interpret the following Biblical passages.
Let's begin. When two or more commands/admonitions/etc are in one selection of passages I will highlight lines of text which discuss similar matters in the same color text.
Surah 33:19** - Such have not believed. Therefore Allah maketh their deeds fruitless
and
Surah 33:25-26 - And Allah repulsed the disbelievers in their wrath; they gained no good. Allah averted their attack from the believers. Allah is ever Strong, Mighty. Allah cast panic into the hearts of the disbelievers. He killed some, and enslaved others.
33:26 And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
Compare Leviticus 26:16-22* - I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children , and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

__________________________________________________________________
Surah 33:48 - And incline not to the disbelievers and the hypocrites. Disregard their noxious talk, and put thy trust in Allah. Allah is sufficient as Trustee.
Compare Deutoronomy 12:29-30 - When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise
and
2 Corinthians 6:14-15 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
and 2 Timothy 2:16 - But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
___________________________________________________________________
Surah 33:57-58 - Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained.
33:58 And those who malign believing men and believing women undeservedly, they bear the guilt of slander and manifest sin.
Compare Deutoronomy 7:9-10 - Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
____________________________________________________________________
Surah 33:64-68 - Lo! Allah hath cursed the disbelievers, and hath prepared for them a flaming fire, 33:65 Wherein they will abide for ever. They will find (then) no protecting friend nor helper.
33:66 On the day when their faces are turned over in the Fire, they say: Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and had obeyed His messenger!
33:67 And they say: Our Lord! Lo! we obeyed our princes and great men, and they misled us from the Way.
33:68 Our Lord! Oh, give them double torment and curse them with a mighty curse.
and
Surah 35:36 - But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate.
Compare Deutoronomy 28:15-22 - But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 28:16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
28:17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
28:18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
28:19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
28:21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
28:22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
and
2 Thessalonians 1:8 - In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
___________________________________________________________________
Surah 34:5 - But those who strive against Our revelations, challenging (Us), theirs will be a painful doom of wrath.
Compare 1 Samuel 2:10 - The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them
__________________________________________________________________
Surah 35:8 - Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will
Compare 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
__________________________________________________________________
I concentrated on Surah 33-35 because that is what you, inkorrekt, were using as evidence and those are the passages most often cited by Christians as "evidence" of Islam's violent nature, but there are many more passages in both the Quran and in the Bible that allow for the killing of non-believers or the destruction of their holy places, call disbelievers and Jews evil, liars and murderers, describe the eternal punishment for unbelievers and the glories awaiting the true believers, and so on and so on. I could do a more thorough comparison if anyone wishes, although, it will take some time.
Like many on here have said, extremists can take almost any passage in either text and fit it to condone their most violent actions.
*KJV version of Bible used
**Pickthall translation of Quran used
Edited by Jaderis, : Added links to texts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by inkorrekt, posted 08-01-2006 11:29 PM inkorrekt has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3450 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 205 of 299 (339888)
08-13-2006 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by inkorrekt
08-13-2006 8:52 PM


Re: TOPIC
Inkorrekt, do you have anything to say about my comparison (Message 197) of Surah 33-35 to passages in the Bible? Or do you admit that you haven't read the Quran and are just parroting fundie lies?
Like I said I can do a more thorough comparison, but if you are just going to blatantly ignore the fact that the OT and the NT are just as bloody and condemning of disbelievers as the Quran and believe whatever the fundie talking heads tell you to believe or that what the extremist Islamic fundies put forward to the world is representative of all Muslims, then let me know so I can stop waiting for a reply.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by inkorrekt, posted 08-13-2006 8:52 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by inkorrekt, posted 08-20-2006 1:21 AM Jaderis has replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3450 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 208 of 299 (341776)
08-20-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by inkorrekt
08-20-2006 1:21 AM


Re: TOPIC
please answer this. All those 19 terrorists who caused 911 had a check list. The last item in their check list was to read the koran. If they are going to kill and destroy valuable human life, why would they read this book which is considered to be sacred just before committing such atrocious acts in the name of Allah?
If you could provide a link where I can confirm this anecdote, I would be greaty appreciative.
In the meantime, I will answer assuming the story is true. I said (and demonstrated how in my comparison) in my original post that extremists can take any part of the Quran or the Bible and use it to the most vicious and bloody ends. Those 19 men very well may have felt that the Quran and Allah sanctioned what they were about to do. However, the vast majority of Muslims disagree.
Continuing what Ringo said, I wonder how many Christians read the Bible before whipping their slaves, before killing vast amounts of Muslims and Jews during the Crusades,before burning innocent women alive on suspicion of being a witch (actually the Bible does condone this), before gassing Jews and others in concentration camps, before massacring entire villages in Vietnam and all the other wars in the past 2000 years, etc, etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by inkorrekt, posted 08-20-2006 1:21 AM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 08-20-2006 6:29 PM Jaderis has replied
 Message 213 by inkorrekt, posted 08-27-2006 2:40 AM Jaderis has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3450 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 211 of 299 (341793)
08-20-2006 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by iano
08-20-2006 6:29 PM


Re: TOPIC
I don't think you'll find that the Bible condones burning people who are suspected of being witches.
Fair enough, but it does condone the killing of witches (specifically by stoning) and the vast majority of people killed were not actually witches (a tiny few worshipped pagan gods or practiced some sort of divination and could be defined as a witch by that, I suppose), so they were executed on suspicion and false evidence.
And if truly a witch then I do not see the problem: it's not like they are an elite group for whom 'burning' will be the outcome.
I don't quite understand the second half of your statement, but the first half is frightening. You then would be in line with your stone in hand? Truly barbarous and , therefore, evidence for the thread topic.
Define 'innocent'
Innocent as in being a midwife, not a witch. Being a folk healer and not a witch. Being a woman who lived alone and not a wich. Being an eccentric old cat lady and not a witch. Being a person who was accused by someone under extreme torture to save their own hide and not a witch. Being a person whose neighbor bore a grudge against them for something or another and not a witch. Being a person who confessed under torture or because they were insane and not a witch. Being a person who floated when thrown into the water and not a witch (or alternatively sank afer a time and drowned before they could be otherwise executed). Being a person despised by the community or a loner or otherwise strange or on the fringes and not a witch.
Edited by Jaderis, : added the bit about gods and divination

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 08-20-2006 6:29 PM iano has not replied

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