Rejection of the Charasmatics and Biblical Literalism

nemesis_juggernaut I do not say that people cannot hear God just that they cannot show this to be so in unambiguous demonstration.The people making the claim of such extraordinary ability are the ones who must satisfy their critics if they wish to be taken seriously. Of course, if you wish to believe that such is the case and are not willing to demonstrate it I have no problem whatsoever with that stance.How can it be unfair to me? I do not demand that you prove your claims unless you are trying to convince me in discussion that this really occured. I simply state that speaking in tongues is more likely a delusion on the part of the participant than an actual event. I assume you have no problem with my awaiting evidence before conceding to your argument. If you do have a problem then all that is needed is a demonstration of your claim.I would ask the same of psychics or astologers and since they are completely off the mark I see no reason to assume, based on your stance, that you are any different.Since a world in which God requires that you believe before you see cannot be differentiated from a universe in which there is none nor can be differentiated from one in which we have deluded ourselves I simply choose one of these 3 possibilities.

Sidelined--I see where you are coming from. There is no need to attempt to "prove" any sort of manifestation to anyone!God will draw people towards Him however which way God so chooses.Maybe God created atheists so that He wouldnt hog all the attention! Not everything that has value and meaning in a spiritual sense has to come from the Bible.God may use the forest and the trees from which the sacred pages were made from as well! We can look beyond the book and see the forest and the trees if we approach it all with an honest and open heart!and on the eighth day, after He rested, God may even have went skiing!

All I said was that I've met one person who attempted to speak in tongues. Both my wife and I felt that this individual was not legitimate and had false pretenses on what speaking in tongues mean. Then I stated that my wife as only met one person who could actually speak in tongues, and that it was not an on-demand function. It was under very special circumstances that this individual was able to do it. I said that I trust my wife's judgement because the longer we are married, the longer it becomes apparent to me that she has the gift of discernment. Some people have it, some don't. I can't prove that to you over the internet. Instead of just taking me at my word you are asking me to prove how my wife has the ability to discern things. One, you are getting off topic. Two, if you don;t believe it, then don't. I'm not sure why this is the focus of your attack. It was a passing comment of mine about a much larger topic: Speaking in Tonuges. My reason for mentioning it is to show that speaking in tongues is likely a very rare occurance. That was it. And it very well likely may be for many claimants. All I said was that I've met one person who spoke in tongues and I didn't believe the sincerity. Then I mentioned that my wife as met many people who claim to speak in tongues, but her judgement tells her that only one of those many was legitimate. It was a way for me to explain that this must be somewhat of a rare occurance. You have the option of believing in the possibility or simply dismissing it. That is entirely up to you.Having said all, can we get back to the issue at hand?

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“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

The obvious question would be: How do you discern the "gift of discernment"? As I said earlier, I have met dozens of people who spoke in tongues on hundreds of occaisions. Many of them I would "trust" implicitly. Yet I'm not convinced that any of their tongues-speaking was genuine.So, with your much more limited experience, how do you discern the discerner?

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The obvious question would be: How do you discern the "gift of discernment"? As I said earlier, I have met dozens of people who spoke in tongues on hundreds of occaisions. Many of them I would "trust" implicitly. Yet I'm not convinced that any of their tongues-speaking was genuine.So, with your much more limited experience, how do you discern the discerner?

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Faith wrote:The basis for all experience is the Bible -- if the experience contradicts the Bible it's not from God. Open and shut.Faith's next statement:In the case of tongues it simply didn't occur after the first few centuries...How do you know this? The Bible doesn't tell you this.'If the experience contradicts the Bible it's not from God. Open and shut.'

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Archer

Or, is able to self hypnotise to a greater extent, and therefore was more believable. Just because something is not 'genuine', doesn't mean the person is purposely faking it.

nemesis_juggernaut You did state that your wife met this person, and ,no, you mentioned nothing about its frequency. We still have not established how your wife is capable of discernment that makes her authoritarian on whether a man is legitimate or not. You did reference scripture concerning fruits and I suppose you have an explanation for this reference.Also, could you explain the "special circumstances" that were required? Since when is a legitimate question about a claim considered an attack? You make a statement that caught my interest and I ask you to explain things that are unclear to me. The topic was your wife and her "discernment" of speaking in tongues and I am asking for a clarification of what makes her more or less discerning.This is directly related to the topic of speaking in tongues since it relates to the criteria people will use to assess its validity. This is the crux of the matter. How is legitimacy objectively determined in the case of speaking in tongues?

nemesis_juggernaut You did state that your wife met this person, and ,no, you mentioned nothing about its frequency. We still have not established how your wife is capable of discernment that makes her authoritarian on whether a man is legitimate or not. You did reference scripture concerning fruits and I suppose you have an explanation for this reference.Also, could you explain the "special circumstances" that were required? Since when is a legitimate question about a claim considered an attack? You make a statement that caught my interest and I ask you to explain things that are unclear to me. The topic was your wife and her "discernment" of speaking in tongues and I am asking for a clarification of what makes her more or less discerning.This is directly related to the topic of speaking in tongues since it relates to the criteria people will use to assess its validity. This is the crux of the matter. How is legitimacy objectively determined in the case of speaking in tongues?

double post

Double post. Sorry.Edited by Archer Opterix, : double post

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Archer

Ringo,You reminded me of a passage from the Tao Te Ching (19):

Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom,
And it will be a hundred times better for everyone.

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Give up kindness, renounce morality,
And people will rediscover devotion and love.

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Archer

I think I read that once upon a time. Funny what rubs off, ain't it?

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