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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 16 of 234 (343331)
08-25-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Archer Opteryx
08-24-2006 8:31 AM


You'd expect they would have a lot of ideas about this.
Maybe Questions that cause a bit of trouble to the teachings?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 234 (343357)
08-25-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Archer Opteryx
08-24-2006 12:22 PM


Reform School
Archer writes:
You seem to be suggesting that 'significance' and the ability to 'develop' go hand in hand. Am I understanding that correctly?
Yes.
We become the decisions that we make. We either choose to be significant or insignificant.
Victors or victims.

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 18 of 234 (343373)
08-25-2006 3:10 PM


So. Is there anything in scripture that would suggest that satan wouldn't or couldn't reform?

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 19 of 234 (343590)
08-26-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Heathen
08-25-2006 3:10 PM


is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
So, nothing from scripture that prevents satan from reforming?
So why doesn't he do it?
Is he trying to grow powerful enough to rival God(something which a reading of the bible should tell him is impossible)
maybe he doesn't believe the 'Word of God' and feels that he can do it anyway?
maybe he knows something we don't?
but why the 'evilness'? noone wants fires and brimstone and all that stuff. There's much better ways to get people on board. (God could learn a thing or two here too)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 234 (343695)
08-26-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Heathen
08-26-2006 12:55 PM


Re: is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
creavolution writes:
So, nothing from scripture that prevents satan from reforming?
Phat writes:
see below
So why doesn't he do it?
Is he trying to grow powerful enough to rival God(something which a reading of the bible should tell him is impossible)
maybe he doesn't believe the 'Word of God' and feels that he can do it anyway?
It appears that Satan is either unable and/or unwilling to see the truth.
NIV writes:
John 8:42-46-- Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
Evidently, people would prefer to believe that they are the captain of their own ship rather than to admit that, regardless of what they believe, there is One greater in charge.
Another scripture that shows this is one regarding antichrist:
NIV writes:
2 Thess 2:9-12-- The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
People may well ask why God would want to delude anyone. The key word here is love If someone tells you an undeniable truth and you reject it, you effectively delude yourself.
I realize that this is my interpretation, but I believe that it is much like when the Bible says that God hardened Pharoahs heart. Many would argue that if it says it, it means literally that God made the heart hardened, or the ones in the above scripture deluded.
I would argue that God indirectly causes these things to happen by presenting us with an undeniable reality (His Holy Spirit) which, foreknowing that we will brazenly deny it---causes us to harden our own hearts and delude ourselves.
IMHO, people mistakenly believe that there are three options.
1) God
2) Devil
3) Freethinking.
I would argue that there is only two options:
1) Gods way
2) The other way

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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 21 of 234 (343708)
08-26-2006 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
08-26-2006 4:35 PM


Re: is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
quote:
It appears that Satan is either unable and/or unwilling to see the truth.
To say he's unwilling suggests he's got a choice - are you suggesting the bible is not the word of God and therefore might be wrong about the endtimes? For example, Satan might not turn up etc etc.
If the bible is not simply guesswork about the future - where's the choice ?
If you believe in the endtimes, I don't understand how you can think there is any evidence of freewill in the bible.
quote:
Many would argue that if it says it, it means literally that God made the heart hardened,
Because that's what it says - I never figured you for a christian who was unable to read his bible.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 234 (345371)
08-31-2006 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by CK
08-26-2006 4:58 PM


Re: is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
CK writes:
To say he's unwilling suggests he's got a choice - are you suggesting the bible is not the word of God and therefore might be wrong about the endtimes? For example, Satan might not turn up etc etc.
Phat writes:
I dunno. In order to even discuss Satan at all, we either need to be reading the Bible or Milton. I don't see much else that we can read. I suppose popular legends and beliefs would qualify, though.
If the bible is not simply guesswork about the future - where's the choice?
Phat writes:
Beliefs involve guessing, in a strict definition of the words. Lets just see if we can even agree on the characteristics of a Satan, should one exist.

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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 234 (345420)
08-31-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Heathen
08-26-2006 12:55 PM


Re: is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
quote:
maybe he knows something we don't?
Hmm. That would be consistent with God panicking during the Tower of Babel crisis.
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 24 of 234 (345432)
08-31-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
08-31-2006 7:58 AM


Re: is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
Phat writes:
Lets just see if we can even agree on the characteristics of a Satan, should one exist.
Even if "a satan" doesn't exist, wouldn't the characteristics still exixt?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 234 (345440)
08-31-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
08-31-2006 12:40 PM


Re: is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
Ringo writes:
Even if "a satan" doesn't exist, wouldn't the characteristics still exixt?
I don't think so.
Jesus, in describing Satan, said:
NIV writes:
John 8:44-45- You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
I don't see how any human could have the characteristic of having no truth in him and still be human. By definition, the spirit that is the devil is a spirit devoid of any truth. Just as we cannot be fully like Jesus, since we are capable of rebellion, (and Jesus overcame that weakness) we also have just enough of the Spirit in us to not be the other spirit.
I know it sounds cliche and a bit simplified, but IMB, there are two spirits.
1) The Holy Spirit
2) The spirit of rebellion (freethinkers! )
Freethinkers who imagine themselves free from any religion or authority save their own---yet who by default are in bondage to the spirit of rebellion.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 26 of 234 (345469)
08-31-2006 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
08-31-2006 1:08 PM


Re: is satan a liberal? Is liberalism satanic?
Phat writes:
Jesus, in describing Satan....
Jesus was clearly speaking figuratively. "You belong to your father, the devil" is figurative. "He is a liar and the father of lies" is figurative.
Bit of a mixed metaphor there, actually. The devil is the father of (Jesus' audience) and also the father of lies. Kinda implies that the members of the audience are lies.
Just goes to show that Jesus was only human.
By the way, back up a few verses and see who the audience was:
quote:
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him....
He was saying that believers are the spawn of Satan.
So cut Him a little slack if He said there is "no" truth in Satan.
By definition, the spirit that is the devil is a spirit devoid of any truth.
Don't know where you get that "definition".
By my definition, the "devil" is the spirit of untruth in all of us.
Just as we cannot be fully like Jesus, since we are capable of rebellion, (and Jesus overcame that weakness)....
I think you miss the point of Jesus being fully human. We can be fully like Him. If He had some super-power that we don't have, He would not have been a man, and His significance would diminish.
... we also have just enough of the Spirit in us to not be the other spirit.
It's not a question of one "spirit" or the other. We have both "spirits" within us - that's what the knowledge of good and evil means.
Freethinkers who imagine themselves free from any religion or authority save their own....
Interesting phrase, that. Kindly point out any fundie who doesn't imagine him/herself "free from any religion save their own".
As for authority, how about making that "responsibility" instead? As in, "Freethinkers don't pass the buck to any authority".
(Satanic or other.)

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 27 of 234 (345487)
08-31-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
08-31-2006 1:08 PM


Re: freethinking = evil?
phat writes:
I know it sounds cliche and a bit simplified, but IMB, there are two spirits.
1) The Holy Spirit
2) The spirit of rebellion (freethinkers! )
Why would freethinking 'default' toward evil?
Freethinkers want to follow truth where it leads. Why wouldn't that path 'default' toward the holy?

Archer
All species are transitional.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 234 (345541)
08-31-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Archer Opteryx
08-31-2006 4:02 PM


Re: freethinking = evil?
Why would freethinking 'default' toward evil?
I think he was just being playful. People that refer to themselves as "Freethinkers" tend to be of the pagan persuasion, i.e., the rebellious towards God, as if anyone that believes in God have no thoughts of their own.

“"All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." ”G. K. Chesterton

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 234 (345545)
08-31-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
08-31-2006 8:22 PM


Re: freethinking = evil?
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
People that refer to themselves as "Freethinkers" tend to be of the pagan persuasion, i.e., the rebellious towards God....
Now I'm wondering why you equate "pagan" with "rebellious towards God".

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 234 (345608)
09-01-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
08-31-2006 2:29 PM


The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
On the one hand, you say:
Ringo writes:
...Jesus was only human.
And then you add:
Ringo writes:
I think you miss the point of Jesus being fully human. We can be fully like Him.
You go on to suggest:
Ringo writes:
We have both "spirits" within us - that's what the knowledge of good and evil means.
I agree with you that the N.T. is metaphorical and figurative. Figurative or not, however, we see that Good (Light) and Evil (Darkness) are not normally coexistant in humans. It is either one or the other at any given moment.
Consider.......
Jesus states: Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters. ...in other words, one cannot gather and scatter at the same time. No man can serve two masters.....
Look at Judas.
Do you think that Judas was always good and evil?
NIV writes:
Mark 7:15-- Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'"
If Judas always had a combination of good and evil in him, he would have remained a ell balanced yet fallible human. However....when Judas betrayed Jesus, Jesus foreknew it.
NIV writes:
John 13:21- Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."
Notice how Jesus did not say that Judas had already betrayed Him. As soon as Judas received a symbolic communion, (the bread) he had a choice to accept the body of Christ into him or to deny Jesus. Judas chose denial. He was expecting a worldly King and not a humble martyr.
John 13:27--As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
Symbolic or not, it is quite clear that Satan was not already in Judas.
Speaking of the Holy Spirit, Jesus states:
John 14:17--The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
This Spirit is not in everyone....only with everyone. Its quite clear that if the Holy Spirit was in everyone, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition.

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