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Author Topic:   Thank You Adam Smith.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 124 (346793)
09-05-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Brian
09-05-2006 6:12 PM


Re: history v philosophy
Brian writes:
I think everyone would benefit from taking a history course, especially one about what history actually is.
Phat writes:
I know very little about world history. I took a course in European History a couple of years ago---but I am naive as to the evolution of ideas from a global perspective.
If someone is a deep thinker, and dwells on the ills of the world, then taking a philosophy course could lead to real psychological problems.
Phat writes:
Sometimes, I think that we dwell on the problems of others (including the world) in order to avoid concentrating on our own problems.
Please note that I am in no way suggesting that this relates to prophex, but I have seen at first hand some very messed up students on philosophy courses.
When I returned to college in my early forties, I was amazed at how many 18-22 year olds are in such a hurry to get through college. It is the only time when they can discuss ideas with other people without being tied down by a job or the demands and responsibilities of everyday life.
If I had it to do over again, I would have attended college and taken six years to graduate--while working part time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 09-05-2006 6:12 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 09-05-2006 6:40 PM Phat has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 47 of 124 (346794)
09-05-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
09-05-2006 6:19 PM


deleted by author.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-05-2006 6:19 PM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 48 of 124 (346796)
09-05-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
09-05-2006 6:25 PM


Re: history v philosophy
When I returned to college in my early forties, I was amazed at how many 18-22 year olds are in such a hurry to get through college. It is the only time when they can discuss ideas with other people without being tied down by a job or the demands and responsibilities of everyday life.
Problem is though, in regard to philosophy, very few young people have had the life experience to fully appreciate some of the issues under discussion.
I remember a class on suffering where we were talking about the death of a close relative, I was 30 and I was the only one who had lost a parent, I had lost both of them (I know it was careless ), but it did mean I really engaged with the material, and I think this applies to other issues as well. Having your heart broken, or realising that you will never fulfill a dream are things you need to go through to appreciate.
If I had it to do over again, I would have attended college and taken six years to graduate--while working part time.
I think I would have went to uni ten years earlier, got the qualifications, then work and travel abroad.
Still time for that though.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 49 of 124 (346803)
09-05-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
09-05-2006 10:29 AM


I must say, you do a great job of blaming Adam Smith for a bunch of shit he's not responsible for.
The competition's been arond forever--ever since we've had tribes competing against one another.
nicotene is naturally found in tobaccoo, and was already being used in the 1600s--why do you think it was a cash crop (for Virginia) under the mercantilist system?
money--ever since we switched from the bargaining system, we've had money. I mean, even Hammurabi's code deals with debt and credit, and we know they had money from the this--"if you don't have the cash, you gotta pay with grain" (paraphrased)
there have always been have-nots--ever since we've had greed.
I admit, social darwinism was bad--but so is this current capitalism--robber barons and Exxon-mobil was not what Smith was advocating
industrialization--I don't know how that relates to capitalism. Care to elaborate?
mediocrity has been here for a long while, and is actually not advocated by capitalism. why? if you make a so-so product, and someone else makes a better quality product, which are you going to buy? If you say the mediocre one, it is only becuase you do not care for quality.
while you're blaming ghettoes on capitalism, be sure to blame Hitler too. Better yet, blame the ghettoes on the greedy robber barons who abused the capitalist system.
aren't slums the same thing as ghettoes?
You know, at least we get to retire at 65 and enjoy life afterwards--want to go back to a time when living to 65 was rare? Like in Smith's time?
We've always had jobs--ever since something needed to be done. the first civilization, Sumer, had jobs.
again, seeing as how you equate jobs with meaningless occupation, blame the damn sumerians.
slavery was well in existence before capitalism. Again, the sumerians had slaves. blame them for the idea.
I'm not sure which misleads the world more--communism, fanatic crackpots, idealists, or capitalistism?
On the point of the world wars--I defintely disagree. WWI was the result of a crazed ruler desparate to prove Europe of germany, and his own, might. WWII was the direct result of the Versailles Treaty--it's unfairness and the unwillingness to defend it.
The first we killed for oil was in WWI--without it the war would've been lost by britain and france before we stepped in.
Jingoism is a result of imperialism, see below
You want to tell me that Hammurabi, Alexander, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Hittites, and many other ancient and classical civilization's weren't in the least bit imperial, and wanted to expand their empire?
We've had borders since we first had city-states--again, blame the sumerians.
Nationalism is not the result of Capitalism--it is, in fact, one of the results of raison d'etat.
You know, I personally blame Osama for 9/11, but whatever.
Terrorism has been around for a long time--far longer than has capitalism.
I would blame your God for making our minds so primitive, not something that didn't actually create them. (in my case, I blame evolution for the screwed up body I've got)
Don't see what capitalism has to do with automobiles and pollution. care to elaborate?
Something tells me you don't mean to thank Smith for not living, as he did in fact live. If you blame him for the "false" live we all lead, its our choice to follow the "false" lives. I happen to think mine's real, but then, "I think not" (oops. do I disappear now)
suburbs are a direct result of the American dream, and we've had the american dream before most farmers were introduced to capitalism. It is, instead, a direct result of our greed.
I'm not sure what conformity and capitalism share, care to elaborate?
as to those glass ceilings--I like my sky lights
you know, it's a good thing there glass--we can break through them. Now, had you made them out of steel and other really strong materials, we'd be deep in trouble. Oh wait, good thing we've got capitalism--who knows what's on the other side, right? It could be an economic goldmine--and whoever gets there first wins. sorry, no ceilings, not where there's money to be made.
At least you do thank him for the one thing he is directly responsible for--capitalism.
What system? You mean we live in the matrix!? shit, we need neo, now. there's always been a system--bargaining, mercantilism, communism, capitalism, and then the governments. Might as well lay the blame at everybody's feet.
Point put simple--quit blaming the wrong guy. Or, actually do something about it if you think it's so bad.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 09-05-2006 10:29 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by joshua221, posted 09-07-2006 7:40 PM kuresu has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 50 of 124 (346886)
09-06-2006 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
09-05-2006 10:29 AM


prophex
I have to ask. Are you able to offer solutions to the problems you think are presented here? Just how would you guide a nation state or city yourself? In what way would you get work done and how would you pay people?
Certainly a man such as yourself is not going to be hypocritical by merely pointing out supposed faults without showing the proper way to accomplish things to produce a world that you consider better run and more equitable. It is easy to talk of solutions ,it is quite another to convince the world to implement them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 09-05-2006 10:29 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Brian, posted 09-06-2006 6:30 AM sidelined has not replied
 Message 69 by joshua221, posted 09-07-2006 7:50 PM sidelined has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 51 of 124 (346918)
09-06-2006 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by sidelined
09-06-2006 12:59 AM


Just how would you guide a nation state or city yourself?
Surely a Christian theocracy is the answer?
Brian.

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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 124 (346923)
09-06-2006 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by joshua221
09-05-2006 5:57 PM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
quote:
It's just that Smith represents what happens when humans invent currencies, and become greedy, and focus their lives on the gain of material "wealth". He not only invented capitalism.
You don't think that currency, greed, focus on material wealth, and capitalism existed before Smith?
quote:
You should read this article from the sunday NY times that messenjah showed me, Dr. Chen from Harvard I believe, taught monkeys how to use money. There were many cases of stealing, and even a case of paying for sex. Doesn't say much for the mathematical genius that invests. Doesn't say much for almost all of the human race today does it?
Reciprocity has always existed.
"You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."
Why is that bad?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by joshua221, posted 09-05-2006 5:57 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 09-06-2006 8:49 AM nator has not replied
 Message 59 by joshua221, posted 09-06-2006 11:37 PM nator has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 124 (346929)
09-06-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by nator
09-06-2006 7:23 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
schrafinator writes:
Reciprocity has always existed. Why is that bad?
Open reciprocity was very simple. If I lived near a forest and you lived near the sea, I could provide you with wood in exchange for you providing me with fish.
It became complicated when money was invented. For one thing, the reciprocity became fixed and closed. I dont like it when the marketplace drives the prices. It means that I have to work for less because some cheap labor is willing to work less.
The banking system is also a villain. What sense does it make when money can be multiplied? For example, if I deposit $1000.00 in the bank and the bank loans you $1000.00, the $1000.00 has essentially become $3000.00.
On paper, I am worth $1000.00.
at the same moment,the bank lists its assets as $1000.00 in the hope that I keep them there.
At the same moment, you have $1000.00 in your hand, although you will owe them $1007.00 payback.
That certainly seems like a corrupt system. I can't quite put a handle on why, except to suggest that it keeps the rich richer and the poor working harder.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by nwr, posted 09-06-2006 9:05 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 55 by CK, posted 09-06-2006 9:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 57 by jar, posted 09-06-2006 9:37 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 65 by ThingsChange, posted 09-07-2006 8:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 54 of 124 (346935)
09-06-2006 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
09-06-2006 8:49 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
The banking system is also a villain. What sense does it make when money can be multiplied? For example, if I deposit $1000.00 in the bank and the bank loans you $1000.00, the $1000.00 has essentially become $3000.00.
That sounds wrong.
On paper, I am worth $1000.00.
at the same moment,the bank lists its assets as $1000.00 in the hope that I keep them there.
Actually, that $1,000 deposit will be counted as a liability for the bank, because they owe it to you.
At the same moment, you have $1000.00 in your hand, although you will owe them $1007.00 payback.
The bank will count that as an asset, since it is owed to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 09-06-2006 8:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 55 of 124 (346938)
09-06-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
09-06-2006 8:49 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
quote:
Open reciprocity was very simple. If I lived near a forest and you lived near the sea, I could provide you with wood in exchange for you providing me with fish.
It became complicated when money was invented. For one thing, the reciprocity became fixed and closed.
What if you didn't have any wood or skills - what would you provide to the person at the sea? How is this not "fixed and closed"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 09-06-2006 8:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 09-06-2006 9:21 AM CK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 124 (346943)
09-06-2006 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by CK
09-06-2006 9:13 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
Im no expert at economics, but I have a rhetorical question for someone with a basic grasp of world economics:
Can Capitalism successfully exist as the only free market system in the world without people to exploit?
In other words, if too many people get on the boat, will the whole boat sink?
Sorry if I sound ignorant, because I basically am!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 124 (346948)
09-06-2006 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
09-06-2006 8:49 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
Open reciprocity was very simple. If I lived near a forest and you lived near the sea, I could provide you with wood in exchange for you providing me with fish.
Which was fine if the fisherman needed wood, but did not work when he needed fruit.
It became complicated when money was invented.
How did it become complicated when money was invented? It seems that it became much simpler.
For one thing, the reciprocity became fixed and closed.
How did it become fixed and closed as opposed to open and flexible?
Before there was money, if the person with the fish needed a product he did not have, he had to find a supplier of the desired product that also wanted fish and that lived within the transport distances of the fish or had to go through a multistage process.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 58 of 124 (346983)
09-06-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Brian
09-06-2006 6:30 AM


Brian writes:
Surely a Christian theocracy is the answer?
Even a Christian theocracy is based on money and greed with an extra flavor of jealousy. How did you think goodie so-and-so got hung (hanged?) for having whiter sheets than goodie so-and-so-1?

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 Message 51 by Brian, posted 09-06-2006 6:30 AM Brian has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 124 (347163)
09-06-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by nator
09-06-2006 7:23 AM


Re: The Wealth Of Nations is the bankruptcy of Culture
quote:
You don't think that currency, greed, focus on material wealth, and capitalism existed before Smith?
quote:
Reciprocity has always existed.
quote:
"You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."
quote:
Why is that bad?
I finally figured you out schraf.
You state premises, not arguments. Simple claims/questions without any supporting facts and evidence...
Good thing I have this new Critical Thinking class.
And by the way my first post was meant to be like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by nator, posted 09-06-2006 7:23 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by CK, posted 09-07-2006 7:00 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 64 by nator, posted 09-07-2006 7:28 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 124 (347165)
09-06-2006 11:38 PM


As for the rest of you!
I'll get back to you all, don't worry kurasu. (not kerasu)
Edit: Wow I can't get your name right. Why is it so hard to spell lol.
KURESU!!!
Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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