Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 234 (345613)
09-01-2006 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
09-01-2006 12:35 AM


Re: The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
Phat writes:
... we see that Good (Light) and Evil (Darkness) are not normally coexistant in humans. It is either one or the other at any given moment.
They have to be coexistent for one or the other to dominate at any given moment.
Do you think that Judas was always good and evil?
Of course. Do you think he was kicking puppies on the way to pick up his silver? He could have done a hundred good things on the same day that he did one bad thing.
If Judas always had a combination of good and evil in him, he would have remained a ell balanced yet fallible human.
Isn't that the point of the story? Wasn't Judas just like any of us?
However....when Judas betrayed Jesus, Jesus foreknew it.
I don't see how Jesus' foreknowledge impacts in any way on the fact that Judas had a good side and a bad side. In fact, it sounds almost like Jesus chose Judas, doesn't it?
... it is quite clear that Satan was not already in Judas.
Not clear at all, unless you think of Satan as some kind of puff-of-smoke phantom. It seems clearer to me that Jesus/God was allowing Satan - i.e. Judas' built in "dark side" - to "come to the surface".
This Spirit is not in everyone....only with everyone.
I don't think the preposition makes any difference at all. In this context, "in" and "with" are identical.
Its quite clear that if the Holy Spirit was in everyone, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition.
You could just as easily say that "if God was in control of the world, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition".
Once again, it's the knowledge of good and evil - we all have it in us. We all have the capacity to do good or evil.
Judas didn't need to be "possessed" to do evil. Nobody does.
If we do evil, we have only ourselves to blame, not "Satan".

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 09-01-2006 12:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 09-11-2006 7:42 AM ringo has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 32 of 234 (345899)
09-01-2006 11:07 PM


Archer Opterix, what if?
Yazidis - Wikipedia

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-02-2006 12:03 AM obvious Child has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 33 of 234 (345914)
09-02-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by obvious Child
09-01-2006 11:07 PM


Malak Ta'us
Wow. Fascinating. Thanks for calling this to my attention.
Yazidis - Wikipedia
What if... Malak Ta'us as conceived by the Yazidis is the real thing? And all the other religions have it wrong?
A lot of people are in for a big surprise, I'd say.
That peacock mandala is exquisite. I've never seen that before.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by obvious Child, posted 09-01-2006 11:07 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by obvious Child, posted 09-02-2006 1:09 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 10:07 PM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 09-09-2006 10:23 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 34 of 234 (345931)
09-02-2006 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Archer Opteryx
09-02-2006 12:03 AM


Re: Malak Ta'us
glad to be of assistance.
Most people have never heard of that religion.
They could be right, or they could be wrong. Who knows?
I don't think it would be that big of a shock, after all he DID reform and God DID forgive him (and then go away).
Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-02-2006 12:03 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6089 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 35 of 234 (347847)
09-09-2006 7:26 PM


already planned for the event
I don't tend to stick with traditional Christian views because I believe the premise of free will is not correct. There is will and there are choices, they are just not free.
from Eph 2:2
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Thus those things in the natural are controlled by spiritual events. Everyone without Christ/Baptism of HS are controlled by satan who reports to ie is controlled by God. Look at the relationship in the promotion of Job. Satan could not act until God released the hedge of protection but Satan was still controlled and is of God's creation as stated that he was a murderer from the beginning. This is in accordence with Isa 45:7 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So until an individual is dragged to Christ because God/Satan are diametrically opposed spirits, he/she reports to satan who reports to God. Thus there is no free will. If so, then Ballaam would certainly have chosen to speak a curse against the Israelites and receive riches and glory from the king. Balaam reported that he could do no more or less then what was God's will although it was not known that "God" in this case was Israel's god. Or when the ark of the covenant was sent home on the back of a donkey with an offering it could only have gone back to Israel if it were not by chance. So although things appear on earth to be by science and by physical laws, they are predestined by the will of God through Satan.
The act of being saved is against one's will:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Once on the other side, the elect are heirs of Christ and are destined to do not their will but the will of the Father. And the will of the father must include some wild stuff because believers are stapled to their flesh for the duration of their physical life on earth.
Thus there is no affect other then God's will. And the lie ie satan will get extinguished at the end times. God will not forgive because He never intended to forgive those he did not predestinate and elect to become heirs. By Romans 9, he decided to hate Esau and love Jacob as twins before they were born. The hole purpose of the OT was to see that dirt acts like dirt and could not choose God by "free" will. Otherwise you would think that the daily miracles would have been sufficient to get individuals to choose life over death. The choice cannot be anything other then what God predetermined else that man could boast about it to all the elect. Imagine the coctail party where God and Satan are talking about destiny in this were not the case. God would say that Satan was a liar from the beginning and that He was destined to be extinguished. Satan would say yea but I broke away from my bondage and I chose to believe in JC and my will is triumphant over God's.... I think not.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 234 (347871)
09-09-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Archer Opteryx
09-02-2006 12:03 AM


Re: Malak Ta'us
But
don't you know the true story?
http://www.deism.com/adamandeve.htm
Enjoy

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-02-2006 12:03 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by kuresu, posted 09-09-2006 10:25 PM RAZD has not replied
 Message 40 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-10-2006 6:02 AM RAZD has not replied
 Message 42 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-10-2006 10:08 AM RAZD has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 234 (347877)
09-09-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Archer Opteryx
09-02-2006 12:03 AM


Re: Malak Ta'us
"melek"
"malak" is king, "melek" is angel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-02-2006 12:03 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-10-2006 5:53 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 38 of 234 (347878)
09-09-2006 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
09-09-2006 10:07 PM


Re: Malak Ta'us
that explains a lot, razd.
that was a good story, too.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 10:07 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 39 of 234 (347906)
09-10-2006 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by arachnophilia
09-09-2006 10:23 PM


Re: Taws Melek
arachnophilia writes:
"melek"
"malak" is king, "melek" is angel.
Two romanizations of the same word. Context distinguishes the meaning.
The name of the Yazidi angel is certainly romanized both ways, as you can see in the Wikipedia articles.
The Wiki article on the angel himself spells the name as Melek and notes this:
Melek Taus is sometimes transliterated Malak Ta'us or Malik Taws. In Semitic languages, malik variably means 'king' or 'angel'.
Melek Tas - Wikipedia
The Wiki article on the Yazidi spells the angel's name as Malak and notes this:
In the Yazidi worldview, God created the world, which is now in the care of a Heptad of seven Holy Beings, often known as Angels or heft sirr (the Seven Mysteries). Pre-eminent among these is Malak Ta’us (Taws Melek in Kurdish), the Peacock Angel, who is equated with Satan or Devil by some Muslims and Christians. 'The reason for the Yazidis reputation of being devil worshipers, is connected to the other name of Malak Ta'us, Shaytan, the same name as the Koran's for Satan.' However, according to the Kurdish linguist Jamal Nebez, the word Taus is most probably derived from the Greek and is related to the words Zeus and Theos, alluding to the meaning of God. Accordingly, Malak Ta'us is God's Angel, and this is how Yezidis themselves see Malak Ta'us or Taus-e-Malak.
Yazidis - Wikipedia
For this post I went with the Kurds in my heading.
.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 09-09-2006 10:23 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by arachnophilia, posted 09-10-2006 6:08 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 40 of 234 (347907)
09-10-2006 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
09-09-2006 10:07 PM


Re: the true story
Thanks, RAZD. Very funny--and thought-provoking!

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 10:07 PM RAZD has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 41 of 234 (347908)
09-10-2006 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Archer Opteryx
09-10-2006 5:53 AM


Re: Taws Melek
In Semitic languages, malik variably means 'king' or 'angel'.
strictly speaking, semitic languages don't use most vowels (a, a, and the semi-vowels: u/v/o, h, y/i) though some systems of vowels have been added to a few of them (ie: hebrew).
however:
Two romanizations of the same word. Context distinguishes the meaning.
"malak" and "melek" are two different words. it's kind of like "red" and "read" in english, they just sound the same, but aren't spelled the same.
malak/melek/molek, a noun meaning "king" or a verb meaning "rule" or the proper name "molech" is spelled . the meaning depends on the vowels and context.
melek, a noun meaning "messenger" or "angel" is spelled . note the extra alef.
verbally, they can sound very similar. in a recent show on the nat'l geo channel about the gospel of judas, they had a dramatization of jesus and his disciples, speaking in aramaic -- and i kept trying to figure out what he was saying about kings, turned out he was talking about angels.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-10-2006 5:53 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6089 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 42 of 234 (347922)
09-10-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
09-09-2006 10:07 PM


Funny and thought provoking. It would have been planned as well. My own thoughts along this line is that those living at the end times will ultimately see the proof of who was in control. My own thoughts along this line is that the proof is in the genes. It would be interesting to find that genetically speaking, Adam, Christ, Eve (with a y exception) and satan are all carbon copies of the same genes. Thus God proves that the original is corrupt and will seek a life apart from God and that the variation in woman goes in the same direction. But when God intervenes spiritually the same nature is nurtured toward a relationship with God. But by the time man finishes the project on genetics and gains understanding into the nature, the plan will collapse. And in locating some leftover genetics in the Vatican or elsewhere, Christ will be resurrected in the flesh as the Antichrist. And well, I don't plan to be here at that time. But for the shcolars that record the event, proof that the genetics were exactly the same will give God something to boast about.
Or maybe we should mutate from a deistic approach and go fro tristic approach. Or isn't that free will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 10:07 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2006 8:17 PM viewfromthetop has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 43 of 234 (347992)
09-10-2006 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by viewfromthetop
09-10-2006 10:08 AM


cloned transexual ... ?
Welcome to the fray viewfromthetop.
It would be interesting to find that genetically speaking, Adam, Christ, Eve (with a y exception) and satan are all carbon copies of the same genes.
Genetically speaking (and accepting for the sake of argument that Eve was created from Adam's rib) she must have been purged of all y chromosomes and had the x chromosomes duplicated (can't add any new material if being made FROM Adam ...) The first gender changing operation AND human cloning wrapped into one ZAP?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-10-2006 10:08 AM viewfromthetop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-10-2006 8:43 PM RAZD has replied

  
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6089 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 44 of 234 (347995)
09-10-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by RAZD
09-10-2006 8:17 PM


Re: cloned transexual ... ?
Now that you mention it, cloning and transexual transformation have got to be good for you because those first generations lived in excess of 1000 years. And would that mean that social security would still kick in at 65?
But your point is well taken. To get the genentic diversity there had to be a lot of sex with angels going on. And I suspect the garden event was that of a sexual nature as many have theorized over the years. It just seems obvious that one would "notice" their nakedness from a little spilled blood or from pregnancy. But I am still betting on the fact that the whole thing was planned down to the subatomic level because it is the best thing going. And I believe the silly things are road blocks to separate the faithful from the faithless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2006 8:17 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by danny, posted 09-10-2006 10:40 PM viewfromthetop has replied
 Message 67 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2006 9:57 PM viewfromthetop has not replied
 Message 68 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-12-2006 10:05 PM viewfromthetop has replied

  
danny
Inactive Junior Member


Message 45 of 234 (348010)
09-10-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by viewfromthetop
09-10-2006 8:43 PM


Re: God as Satan
Just to be Devil's Advocate concerning Satan throwing himself (or is that Himself) on God's mercy. Traditionally God is viewed as a male entity judging mankind against His own perfection, and finding us constantly wanting we are punished for the inadequacies He gave us. This entity requires worship, thanks and praise but above all fear and Love. Surely Love is the utter absence of fear. We see the history of slaughter wrought by those who worship this entity and the misery and suffering of countless millions. Belief in this male omnipresence (the ultimate Big Brother) is the cornerstone for every major conflict mankind has been subjected to. The big three - Christianity, Judaism and Islam - all follow this male God and we are at present witnessing a mounting war between them that may well drag us all down. This Gosd bestows, not Love, but war, violence, suffering and division. So - is this God really Satan in disguise leading us all merrily to Armageddon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-10-2006 8:43 PM viewfromthetop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-10-2006 11:01 PM danny has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024