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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 46 of 234 (348014)
09-10-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by danny
09-10-2006 10:40 PM


Re: God as Satan
Absolutely we are headed for Armageddon. Although the God of the Muslims, Jews and Christians is the same God, all gods are put here by God. Look at the story of Balak and Balaam. Balaam was offered a huge reward for cursing the Israelites. But Balaam claimed he could only say what his God told him to say and nothing more/less. Obviously his free will would have led him to speak the curse especially in light of the fact that Balak had the capcity to take his head and probably would have if not for the intervention of the angel of the Lord. It is most interesting that capital LORD is used indicating that Balaam was praying directly to the God of Jacob yet it would not have been the same God that the Israelites prayed to because they prayed to God, of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It would have been something like the president of Iraq going to Billy Graham to pray a curse on antoher Muslim faction. When God says that He goes down to the depths of shoel, there he is. God has purposed the degradation of our social fabric and even the division of the church. He brough on 9/11 as well as the hurricanes and sunamis. He is fulfilling his purpose to separate those that are dirt from those pieces of dirt that He intends to put His spirit into. The good news is that you get a ticket so long as you had one before the foundation of the earth. The bad news is that if you don't get one, it was intended that way. And the other bad news is that you have to be drawn to God which indicates resistance. So be prepared to go from green pastures to the valley of the shadow of death! And it would be a good idea to hook up with some Christians along the way that can direct you to the front door.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2006 5:07 AM viewfromthetop has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


(1)
Message 47 of 234 (348042)
09-11-2006 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by viewfromthetop
09-10-2006 11:01 PM


topic renewal
I appreciate your participation, viewfromthetop, but as your post consists of end times catastrophizing it strikes me as clearly off topic.
The subject is Satan's possible reform. Please read the original post, which poses a series of questions on the implications of such a transition. Feel free to share your thoughts, but please mind the topic.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-10-2006 11:01 PM viewfromthetop has replied

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viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 48 of 234 (348067)
09-11-2006 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2006 5:07 AM


Re: topic renewal
I think it just needs to get tied back in. Scripture indicates that those natural things that God hates will be extinguished including Satan. And although there are probably a lot of people believing that they have a part in the final battle between good and evil, the book says that it takes not a legion of angels and all the Christians, but one angel to handle the situation. In Rev 20, Satan gets resurrected to try to fool the elect but there are no takers, because by definition the only ones that are left love God. So there is no place on earth for him and Satan is extinguished. Thus it is already determined that Satan does not reform.
Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 234 (348068)
09-11-2006 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
09-01-2006 1:05 AM


Re: The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
Ringo writes:
You could just as easily say that "if God was in control of the world, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition".
Once again, it's the knowledge of good and evil - we all have it in us. We all have the capacity to do good or evil.
Judas didn't need to be "possessed" to do evil. Nobody does.
If we do evil, we have only ourselves to blame, not "Satan".
So does that mean if we do good we have only ourselves to thank?
Where does that leave God?

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 Message 31 by ringo, posted 09-01-2006 1:05 AM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 234 (348097)
09-11-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
09-11-2006 7:42 AM


Re: The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
Phat writes:
If we do evil, we have only ourselves to blame, not "Satan".
So does that mean if we do good we have only ourselves to thank?
Where does that leave God?
Do you think God sits on His cloud all day long like a teenage girl, waiting for us to call?
Do you think He cries Himself to sleep if we don't?
Big Gods don't cry... big Gods don't cry....

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 Message 49 by Phat, posted 09-11-2006 7:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 09-11-2006 11:58 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 234 (348104)
09-11-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
09-11-2006 11:07 AM


Re: The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
I understand what you are saying, but I guess that my belief is that God knows that we need Him even after we "leave the nest" so to speak.
I would imagine that He cries for every one of us.
Not as a teenage girl would cry, necessarily.
I believe that He knows that our relationship with Him will help us grow.
God does not want us to be independant of Him, in other words.
God also does not want us to be co-dependant.
God wants us to be interdependant.

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 Message 50 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 11:07 AM ringo has replied

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 Message 52 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 2:07 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 234 (348131)
09-11-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
09-11-2006 11:58 AM


Re: The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
Phat writes:
God does not want us to be independant of Him....
I think He does.
That's where the whole free-will/knowledge-of-good-and-evil thing comes in. If He wanted us on a leash, He could have done that. But, like any parent, He does want us to leave the nest.
God wants us to be interdependant.
God dependent on us? **checks to make sure this isn't the "unthinking blasphemy" thread**
-------------
So, what was the topic? What if Satan reformed?
Satan could only "reform" if he was, in fact, separate from God. But the Bible depicts him (mostly) as a servant of God, somebody who is not independent. The Bible depicts him (mostly) as God's effort to test our independence.
Edited by Ringo, : Typo.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 09-11-2006 11:58 AM Phat has replied

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 Message 53 by Phat, posted 09-11-2006 9:23 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 234 (348233)
09-11-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
09-11-2006 2:07 PM


Re: The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
Ringo writes:
Satan could only "reform" if he was, in fact, separate from God. But the Bible depicts him (mostly) as a servant of God, somebody who is not independent. The Bible depicts him (mostly) as God's effort to test our independence.
See, here we go disagreeing again!
I maintain that every living thing is by default a servant of God, be it willingly or be it unwillingly. Every knee shall eventually bow....
Satan was independant in will. God never created a fallen Satan. God created a freewill Lucifer who made a onetime eternal choice to attempt independance. But of course its like a goldfish declaring that he will refuse to be in the tank. Just as the goldfish has no way to actually escape his environment, no entity in the known universe can escape the authority of God.
The whole idea of satan reforming is whether or not Satan will finally acknowledge the foregone conclusion that it is Gods universe whether one believes it or not.
Satan was used to test our independance, but it is, for us, not a choice to follow God or His clever counterfeit. It is a choice to willfully bend our knee and realize that Daddy will always be in control. Daddy doesnt want his kids to grow up to be Satans, after all.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 54 of 234 (348247)
09-11-2006 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
09-11-2006 9:23 PM


Re: The Spirit is with everyone but not IN everyone
Phat writes:
It is a choice to willfully bend our knee and realize that Daddy will always be in control.
You don't have any kids, do you?
Fathers don't want to "always be in control". They want their kids to grow up and be in control of (i.e. take responsibility for) their own lives.
Daddy doesnt want his kids to grow up to be Satans, after all.
Daddy doesn't want his kids to live in His basement forever either. Going out into the real world has its temptations and its risks, but a mature parent wants his kids to mature too.
The whole idea of satan reforming is whether or not Satan will finally acknowledge the foregone conclusion that it is Gods universe whether one believes it or not.
Do you realize how silly that sounds?
If Satan was as sharp as you imagine, do you think he wouldn't understand the "foregone conclusion" as well as you do? Why wouldn't he be trying to cut his losses instead of pulling a Hitler-in-the-bunker?

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 Message 55 by danny, posted 09-11-2006 11:16 PM ringo has replied

  
danny
Inactive Junior Member


Message 55 of 234 (348269)
09-11-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
09-11-2006 9:54 PM


Can Satan reform?
I think talking about God in human terms is misleading. If God is everything then 'It' is less of a being and more of a 'state of being'. Satan reflects the separation from this state of being. It is the price we all pay for being individuals. This separation from God leaves us all with an underlying sense of isolation and it is from this that all our existential fears (Satan)stem from. For Satan to 'reform' He would have to transcend this separation and in doing so would "return to God", as it were. He would have to annihilate His own Self in order to return to the state of being that is God and I really don't think it's in His make up to do that.

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 Message 54 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 9:54 PM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 56 of 234 (348271)
09-11-2006 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by danny
09-11-2006 11:16 PM


Re: Can Satan reform?
danny writes:
I think talking about God in human terms is misleading.
Humans can only talk to humans in human terms. How is that "misleading"?
If God is everything then 'It' is less of a being and more of a 'state of being'. Satan reflects the separation from this state of being.
That doesn't make sense. If everything is the "state of being", how can anything be separate from it?
For Satan to 'reform' He would have to transcend this separation and in doing so would "return to God", as it were. He would have to annihilate His own Self in order to return to the state of being that is God....
Exactly. But the "separation" can't be real.
Therefore, since there is no Satanic "self", the "annihilation of self" is already a fait accompli.
(Welcome to Evc. )

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 234 (348379)
09-12-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
09-11-2006 11:39 PM


Re: Can Satan reform?
I interpret the Fall analogy thusly:
Before the event, everyone was in communion and there was no seperation of being, alternate reality, or "other spirit".
After the Fall, when peoples eyes were metaphorically opened, we ourselves became a seperate spirit, alternate reality, (freethinking) that was no longer in communion with the Creator Spirit.
Some would suggest that by default, any spirit that is in the alternate reality is Satanic by default.
The very idea of independance from God is not growing up, in my opinion. It is like excommunicating oneself from the family.
In order for Satan to reform, it is true that his self would have to cease to exist. In human terms, when we give our hearts and wills to God, "It is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me."
Of course I'm being theoretical. I have yet to see my self fully surrender as of yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 11:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 09-12-2006 4:32 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 234 (348474)
09-12-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
09-12-2006 12:14 PM


Phat writes:
After the Fall, when peoples eyes were metaphorically opened, we ourselves became a seperate spirit, alternate reality, (freethinking) that was no longer in communion with the Creator Spirit.
As I've been discussing with Buzsaw in another thread far, far away, man's relationship with God was much closer after they obtained the knowledge of good and evil.
Before, He had spoken to Adam only once and to Eve never. He had walked with them never. After, the Bible is chock-full of stories of God talking to people and walking with people.
As God said Himself, eating the fruit made them more like Him. They needed to eat the fruit to have closer communion with God. Communion between equals is always better than up or down a chain of command.
Some would suggest that by default, any spirit that is in the alternate reality is Satanic by default.
So, logically, since there is no "alternate reality", there is no Satan.
The very idea of independance from God is not growing up, in my opinion. It is like excommunicating oneself from the family.
The Adam and Eve story disagrees with you. They became more independent, took responsibility for their own lives and improved their communications with God.
It's the exact opposite of "excommunicating oneself". Jesus said that we love God by loving "the family" - i.e. our fellow man. Better communication with "the family" - empathy for their needs - is better communication with God.

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 Message 57 by Phat, posted 09-12-2006 12:14 PM Phat has replied

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 Message 59 by Phat, posted 09-12-2006 5:38 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 234 (348484)
09-12-2006 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
09-12-2006 4:32 PM


Tit for Tat
Ringo writes:
Communion between equals is always better than up or down a chain of command.
Knowledge of good and evil hardly makes us an equal with God.
Ringo writes:
So, logically, since there is no "alternate reality", there is no Satan.
Depends on your perspective. We know we are not in Gods reality yet. What reality is left?
Just because we are aware of good and evil does not make us fully aware of all levels.
God has given us an invite to regain communion with Him. I suppose that by default, refusal of such communion leaves us in another communion. The worldly flow.

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 Message 60 by jar, posted 09-12-2006 5:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 234 (348489)
09-12-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
09-12-2006 5:38 PM


Re: Tit for Tat
Phat writes:
Knowledge of good and evil hardly makes us an equal with God.
Who said:
"The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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