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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 91 of 234 (349260)
09-15-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by ReverendDG
09-15-2006 3:10 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
RevDG, we are born in sin and shappened in inequity. We follow the prince of the world (satan) until we are drawn (resistence) to God based on a plan that God contrived before any of us were born. If God is going to change His mind willy/nilly then He may squish us all like bugs which He could do but won't based on His word. As for predetermining the group of the elect, are you prepared to cut Rom 9 from the Bible which follows Malachi? For the exact purpose that no man could boast and be prideful above God's will, He purposed to love one twin and hate the other before the foudation of the world. That is your God. Do you still love Him now?
And please don't confuse God so loved the world with the world of all people. God made hell and intends to send a lot of people there. And the same author that wrote God so loved the world also quoted Jesus as stating that He (Jesus) prays not for the world but for those that the Father has given Him. Further scripture indicates in end times that there will be separation from those doing the same work in that some are taken and some not. Thus there will be some empty places in the pews and some people left shaking their heads in disbelief.
I didn't write this stuff, He did. But I don't hear too many sermons on Rom 9. BTW God has absolute control over satan, I never implied He didn't. I only implied that He created a plan and is working it backwards because His ways are not our ways.
As for the elect, they were predetermined. If you were not predetermined, you are a vessel of wrath and you don't have a chance. But you won't know that until it is too late. On the other hand even things such as simple as reading this forum can indicate faith as faith comes by hearing the Word. The elect are called to speak the Word and will be rewarded as having shown acts of faith in so doing. We just need to have an alter call on the forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ReverendDG, posted 09-15-2006 3:10 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 10:23 AM viewfromthetop has not replied
 Message 94 by iano, posted 09-15-2006 10:59 AM viewfromthetop has replied
 Message 113 by ReverendDG, posted 09-20-2006 8:17 AM viewfromthetop has not replied

  
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 92 of 234 (349269)
09-15-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by viewfromthetop
09-15-2006 8:48 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
RevDG, forgot to suggest you repent for calling God a monster. I believe KJ frequently uses fear the Lord.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 8:48 AM viewfromthetop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by NosyNed, posted 09-15-2006 10:45 AM viewfromthetop has replied
 Message 114 by ReverendDG, posted 09-20-2006 8:20 AM viewfromthetop has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 93 of 234 (349273)
09-15-2006 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by viewfromthetop
09-15-2006 10:23 AM


God the Monster
RevDG, forgot to suggest you repent for calling God a monster. I believe KJ frequently uses fear the Lord.
RevDG is simply putting a word to what some Christians here describe their God as. If you want to describe His behaviour as monstrous then RevDG is right to attach that label.
You've done it again in the quote above. It seems that you worship a petty, little tyrant with unlimited power that he will unleash on someone who calls him names.
In my world we call that a bully and if he acts as some of you describe god as acting we call them a psychopath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 10:23 AM viewfromthetop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 11:02 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 94 of 234 (349277)
09-15-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by viewfromthetop
09-15-2006 8:48 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
The elect are called to speak the Word
One would have to wonder why - if the elect are the elect then they are the elect altarcall or no. There is no point in evangelising folk who are going to be saved anyway. If an elect is not saved then he was never elect. It seems to me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 8:48 AM viewfromthetop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 11:13 AM iano has replied

  
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 95 of 234 (349279)
09-15-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by NosyNed
09-15-2006 10:45 AM


Re: God the Monster
If I were defining God from the persepective of dirt, then I would call Him a psychopath to, but I see Him as an heir, so I will be humble in my place. Blasphemy is forgivable as sin or evil anyway as well to those that are the elect. I didn't write it, God did. Nor did I make the rules.
I simply state that RevDG is not on target if he wants to cut Rom 9, Mal, and Psa 139 out of the Bible. And it seems to me the whole NT is for the dirt in us that cannot distinguish God even when He does daily miracles. Thus there has to be an ordered plan that is followed or we would all jump off a cliff or at least end up on Dateline as a pervert or something that would lead us to incarceration. And Satan heads that division. I might add that I believe my ex wife appears to be a general in Satan's army. hehe.
Now if all conforms to some type of plan and could be "like" a computer program, then God may reveal to the elect that there is no consequence to those that are not of the elect because they can be erased and had no bearing in the first place. How do you cry for someone who was a Hollowdeck program (borrowed from Star Trek)? And for those that are the elect, they are in a learning mode while in an earth suit. Did your mom tell you not to touch something hot and you obeyed every time? Or did you have to learn about hot stoves by experience? And if we do not disipline our children then they will grow up to be Hitlers or Husseins? What you call a tyrant, I call a good Dad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by NosyNed, posted 09-15-2006 10:45 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 96 of 234 (349283)
09-15-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
09-15-2006 10:59 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
iano, the purpose of the elect speaking from the housetops (mat 10:27) is to exercise their faith. It is a blessing or a lesson that leads to progress or wealth in spiritual terms. And it simply is the vehicle that God has chosen for the elect to be drawn from their lives in sin. In that sense an evangelist that goes to the north pole to find Santa Claus or even the penguins and speak the Word to them is as important as a missionary heading up the Amazon to find cannibals that have not heard the Word. God plans every day of our lives and how much we exercise or faith, our lies, or our lack therof.
I didn't make the plan. But pieces have been revealed to me by exercising my faith. And when I see the fact that the Israelites missed Jesus because they couldn't get past the law which stated that a man hanging from a tree had to be cursed. And when the gentiles couldn't see past acts of faith like baby talk (speaking in tongues) then there appears to be a narrow window for the elect to fit through. But if you read the Word and ask to see, there is rest in the sillyness.
If I have no fear of death and I believe God has planeed everyday of my life and that I am an heir to the greatest riches in the universe, I can come pretty close to walking on water And if I wasn't so busy treading water, I probably could actually do it. But we get so caught up in stupid stuff we don't know how to really get out there in faith. But then that has to be planned as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 09-15-2006 10:59 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 11:53 AM viewfromthetop has not replied
 Message 98 by iano, posted 09-15-2006 1:05 PM viewfromthetop has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 97 of 234 (349292)
09-15-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by viewfromthetop
09-15-2006 11:13 AM


The question is: What if Satan reformed?
Hey, viewfromthetop,
I was kinda hoping for a response to Message 85, if you can spare a minute from your sermon.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 11:13 AM viewfromthetop has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 98 of 234 (349317)
09-15-2006 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by viewfromthetop
09-15-2006 11:13 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
the purpose of the elect speaking from the housetops (mat 10:27) is to exercise their faith.
I was under the impression that it was to spread the word to a lost and needy world. To become fishers of the lost he came to seek and save. To be tools Gods uses in turning the lost into the elect - just like he did with the elect who are now shouting from the rooftops. Rationally, one does not need to seek and save the elect.
In following the instruction to spread the word, one is indeed expressing faith. And that would lead to the benefits and fit with the purpose you describe. But that is, I believe, a paralle function. God the Father can multitask - even if he only gave the ability to do so to women
If I have no fear of death and I believe God has planeed everyday of my life and that I am an heir to the greatest riches in the universe,
I have no fear of death (although I'm not looking forward to the process in case its a slow painful one). I believe that God has a plan for every day of my life and believe too that I am the greatest spanner in its works. As far as my inheritance? #2042 Salvation Rd, Cardboard City, Heaven... will do me fine. It will be the finest thing no matter the abode. Me? I can't wait to get there myself
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 11:13 AM viewfromthetop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-15-2006 6:27 PM iano has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 99 of 234 (349435)
09-15-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
09-15-2006 1:05 PM


Re: Grace--How amazing can it get?
I'm reading testimonials about individuals' beliefs about salvation.
Let's take that to the topic: can a repentent Satan be saved?
Please see the questions in the OP.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 09-15-2006 1:05 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 09-15-2006 6:48 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 100 of 234 (349441)
09-15-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Archer Opteryx
09-15-2006 6:27 PM


Let's take that to the topic: can a repentent Satan be saved?
Please see the questions in the OP.
Sorry Archer.
Can satan be saved? Can my cat be saved? I dunno. Salvation seems to be directed at humans. But assuming salvation was to apply to angels as it does to humans for a minute:
He could be but he won't be. I could be saved and God, in his foreknowledge knew that I would be. Satan could be saved but God in his foreknowledge knew that he wouldn't be. In satans case we are told the final result. In the case of many others we are not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-15-2006 6:27 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 101 of 234 (349459)
09-15-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
09-14-2006 6:46 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Ringo,
Here goes (at the risk of being off topic but trying to get on topic)
The reason pieces of creation are thrown in the fire is because God hates Satan and Satan is the sanitation director. And that makes sense when an upgrade is in order. Now there may be those out there that are still operating on DOS, I would bet that there aren't many Commodore 64's out there in operation.
As for making code that is opposed to the program, I am guessing that there is a great need for virus detection software companies to employ individuals to create viruses. And I am not suggesting that they do, but that a potential exists in the need that is created by having a virus and the antivirus. So if there is a Christ and an antichrist God somehow gets exalted out of the gray area. It it was an on/off switch it would be too easy. In reality God is making heirs out of dirt and however He accomplishes that is pretty cool.
Cntrl+Alt+Delete is pretty much death burial and resurrection. Can I borrow that?
God has ultimate power and authority. He created satan to be extinguished and that will go forward as planned. I am not promoting Benny Hinn, but he wrote something that is a good analogy between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that goes something like this. God has an idea to turn on the light. Jesus flips the switch and the Holy Spirit is the current that lights the bulb.
God sticks to His plan. Otherwise we would all be in trouble and He wouldn't be the truth. In which case Satan could repent and people or even angels could be added to the book of life. But then the entire Word would be useless as God could undo his covenants. That would not be a good thing in light of how He feels about fleshly beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 09-14-2006 6:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 8:11 PM viewfromthetop has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 234 (349469)
09-15-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by viewfromthetop
09-15-2006 7:50 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
viewfromthetop writes:
The reason pieces of creation are thrown in the fire is because God hates Satan and Satan is the sanitation director.
Sorry, that still doesn't make any sense. Why would God hate His own sanitation director? And wouldn't it be counterproductive to throw His own sanitation director into the fire?
I would bet that there aren't many Commodore 64's out there in operation.
I've got one.
As for making code that is opposed to the program, I am guessing that there is a great need for virus detection software companies to employ individuals to create viruses. And I am not suggesting that they do, but that a potential exists in the need that is created by having a virus and the antivirus. So if there is a Christ and an antichrist God somehow gets exalted out of the gray area. It it was an on/off switch it would be too easy. In reality God is making heirs out of dirt and however He accomplishes that is pretty cool.
What? Any chance of an English translation?
Cntrl+Alt+Delete is pretty much death burial and resurrection.
Well, no. I think my point was that Ctrl+Alt+Delete is a way to avoid throwing the computer away every time something goes wrong. The question remains: Why would God design a system that can't recover from a crash? Why would He use Satan and then just throw him away with no attempt to repair/rescue/recyle him?
Allow me to repeat the question, "WHAT IF Satan reformed?"
Stow the rhetoric about why Satan can't reform. What if he did?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-15-2006 7:50 PM viewfromthetop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Philip, posted 09-17-2006 11:11 PM ringo has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 103 of 234 (349884)
09-17-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
09-15-2006 8:11 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Ringo writes:
"WHAT IF Satan reformed?"
1) Impossible from a *predestinarian* view;
(Again according to Joh 8:44) ... He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HIM. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Mat 25:41 . everlasting fire PREPARED for the devil and his angels .
Romans 8: Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction
Etc.
2) Impossible from a free-will view:
Can a leopard lose its spots (Jer 13.23) . then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Notwithstanding other scriptures seem (to me) to explicitly decree Satan’s torment as an ”absolute’ reality in real time. Holy Scriptures never let up on this premise of Satan skipping judgment.
The fallacy of fallacies of this “WHAT IF” hypothesis is that science and scriptures (and let me guess the Koran also) all reject the hypothesis as untenable.
3) Impossible from a science view:
What if corn became peanut butter? Well whose corn is it in the beginning?
What if quarks spontaneously became man? Whose quarks are they to begin with?
Etc.
In sum, do you really want a cursed-loser like me doting on “what if” hypotheses about the Devil/evil becoming God/good? What about vice-versa? Etc. What about a Christ’s redeeming sufferings, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension becoming my personal restoration from the devil, sin, and the curse? Should I (a puny confused one) flippantly postulate the devils, death, and hell NOT being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 21,22)?
Or take doctrine of the Gospel of grace and hypothetically replace each reference to “man” with “the devil”: I.e., For God so loved *THE DEVIL* that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish .

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 8:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-18-2006 2:23 AM Philip has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 234 (349900)
09-18-2006 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Philip
09-17-2006 11:11 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Philip writes:
In sum, do you really want a cursed-loser like me doting on “what if” hypotheses about the Devil/evil becoming God/good?
Well, you weren't the one I asked. So, no. Technically, I didn't want an answer from you.
But the question still is "What if?", whether you like it or not. Prattling on and on about how it's impossible just doesn't answer the question.
What if corn became peanut butter? Well whose corn is it in the beginning?
What if quarks spontaneously became man? Whose quarks are they to begin with?
What does ownership have to do with it?
If the question was, "What if corn became peanut butter?", what would the answer be?
How would the nutritive value compare with traditional peanut butter? Would artificial colours and flavours have to be added? How would the cost compare? What effects would corn-to-peanut-butter production have on the agricultural economy?
Answers to the question, "What if Satan reformed?" should also answer questions like: Would Satan live on the same block as me in heaven? Would he be my supervisor, based on his greater experience? If one believes in purgatory, how long would Satan spend there? And so on....
On a more serious note, the specific questions asked in the OP are:
  1. Would God forgive?
  2. Would evil disappear?
  3. How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing?
  4. How would you get the memo?
"It's impossible" is a pretty empty answer.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Philip, posted 09-17-2006 11:11 PM Philip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-18-2006 3:56 PM ringo has replied
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 07-11-2012 8:45 PM ringo has replied

  
jerker77
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 234 (349901)
09-18-2006 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
08-18-2006 5:02 PM


WHAT IF Satan reformed?
Though I’m not a Christian I might be so bold to refer to one who a long time ago held that very belief.
If he reformed we would have something like the old teaching of Origen, the Apokátastasis panton. In brief Origen believed that salvation equalled the return of everything to god, including wicked men, daemons, and finally Lucifer. But Origins whole conception of the scheme of salvation is different from what present day Christians would recognize as Christian teaching.
If we postulate his reform Christians would lose their armoury of terror, torment and misery. The meaning of personal salvation would have to be redefined as would the theology of the cross.
Origen did all this necessary theological redefining and interestingly enough he got away with it. But his ideas never came into fashion in a wider circle than the Neo-Platonist circle that thrived in the early church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-18-2006 5:02 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
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