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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 121 of 234 (350815)
09-20-2006 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by viewfromthetop
09-20-2006 6:40 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
well i have to say, i've never had someone misunderstand my posts this badly before.
if you truely are this shaken by my view on paul, maybe you need to look into what you believe, paul or jesus?

Stop this. Head back towards the topic. It is "What if Satan reformed?"

Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

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 Message 119 by viewfromthetop, posted 09-20-2006 6:40 PM viewfromthetop has not replied

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 122 of 234 (350894)
09-21-2006 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by ReverendDG
09-20-2006 8:15 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
AdminJar writes:
Stop this. Head back towards the topic. It is "What if Satan reformed?"
From a fundyish-viewpoint: Satan's reformaton would seem equivalent to his being *taken out* of the picture or erased from existence.
If Satan *reformed*: No need for prayer, atonement, reconciliation, forgiveness, salvation, justice, eternal punishment, etc. since sin and evil would be erased from existence. (This is debatable by many fundies who believe in a literal 1000 years SANS Satan)
If Satan reformed: No more cosmic-curse: The 2nd Law of Thermo might not exist: Beneficial mutation (macro-evolution) might actually become *tenable hypothesis* for a change.
If Satan reformed: Everyone would raise from the dead, the kindom of heaven would be complete on earth ... no more sorrows and pain ... at all ... we'd be stuck with the "Gospel of the Kingdom" SANS "the Gospel of Grace" (another dispensation)
... Satan, Death, and *Hell* would still be cast into the Lake of Fire because these 3 angels can't really be erased, just damned. Their legacy of sorrow and pain far exceeds the means and methods of reformation. The cross of Christ could never redeem Satan nor angelic aliens, whether good or evil (by definition, Christ only assimilates human sins (2Cor5.13), only eternal judgement of hellfire could make possible Satan's existence to begin with (if God were ominpresent).
... The Eternal Lamb of God may assimilate my abominable crimes against the Majesty of Holiness (the LORD) and give me repentence, rebirth, remission, restoration, and eternal life, etc...
If Satan reformed it would be caused by a valid Redeemer paying for and bailing out the devil and his damnation, anyway ... the Lamb of God would have had to assimilate Satan and all his anti-Christ agendas, the Lake of Fire, and all demons that befit this fearful cherub
... all this eternally and divinely planned-out first ... before giving Satan any good inclination of God's grace to validate any *reformation*.
Respectfully to all, I propose this topic is become quite invalidated and should be closed.

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ReverendDG, posted 09-20-2006 8:15 PM ReverendDG has not replied

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 Message 123 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-21-2006 1:24 AM Philip has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 123 of 234 (350897)
09-21-2006 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Philip
09-21-2006 1:00 AM


Why is a good Satan scarier than an evil one?
Thanks, Philip, for taking the time to provide such a detailed and articulate response to the hypothetical question. You have definite views on this, cogently presented.
How do you view the issue of free will? If I understand you, you say disobedience would cease to exist if Satan reformed.
You are the first person who has said God would call an immediate halt to the universe if Satan converted. This is very interesting. It implies that Satan's existence has much to do with why God created the universe in the first place. It also suggests that the presence of evil sustains the universe somehow, since Satan's demise or conversion both have the effect of ending it. What is the goal of Creation, as you see it?
Philip:
Respectfully to all, I propose this topic is become quite invalidated and should be closed.
On the contrary: I think it's finally getting somewhere. If you decide to change the channel, I respect your decision. But I hope you won't.
It does seem that the prospect of a redeemed Satan is far more unsettling to people than the prospect of an evil one.
Why do you think this is?
_
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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 Message 122 by Philip, posted 09-21-2006 1:00 AM Philip has not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 234 (350928)
09-21-2006 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Archer Opteryx
09-21-2006 1:24 AM


Re: Why is a good Satan scarier than an evil one?
Arch writes:
It does seem that the prospect of a redeemed Satan is far more unsettling to people than the prospect of an evil one.
Why do you think this is?
Maybe its because we no longer would have anything to blame our weaknesses on!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 125 of 234 (351209)
09-22-2006 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
08-18-2006 5:02 PM


Origen of Alexandria
I'm not quite sure that this answers the OP questions specifically, but I wanted to throw it out as food for thought.
The 3rd century Christian theologian, Origen, proposed that at the end of time all souls would be saved, including Satan's. His rationalization for this is that all souls were once of God and fell away and that if God is truly all loving and good then all souls must return to him and "end subject to his care"*(p.149) (although he also argued that those who rejected God would be given their "just deserts"*(p.148) before this happened). He also proposed that if God were truly omnipotent that it would be "an admission that he had been thwarted by a mere human being"*(p.149) to send even one soul to hell for all eternity and that "providence will never abandon the universe. For even if some part of it becomes very bad because the rational beings sin, He arranges to purify it, and after a time, to turn the universe back to himself."**
Of course, Origen's teachings were rejected as heretical by the early church authorities. Charles Freeman (the author of the book cited below) argues that it is because they undermined the need for eternal damnation and punishment as incentive for being good and that threatened the burgeoning political power structure of the early church.
*Charles Freeman, The Closing of the Western MInd: The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason, 2002
**Origen Contra Celsum 4:99

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-18-2006 5:02 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

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 Message 126 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-22-2006 7:16 AM Jaderis has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 126 of 234 (351234)
09-22-2006 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Jaderis
09-22-2006 2:34 AM


Re: Origen of Alexandria
Jaderis:
The 3rd century Christian theologian, Origen, proposed that at the end of time all souls would be saved, including Satan's.
Many thanks for sharing this. Fascinating. I look forward to taking a look at Freeman's book.
Origen would be a 'universalist', then, if I understand that term correctly.
That is to my knowledge the only time the possibility of Satan's redemption has been entertained seriously in Christian history. Anyone know of any others?
In Paradise Lost Milton's Satan famously says that it is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. I don't recall the exact context. Had Milton's God just given him a chance to enter heaven?

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Jaderis, posted 09-22-2006 2:34 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Jaderis, posted 09-22-2006 8:19 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-24-2006 11:16 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 127 of 234 (351475)
09-22-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Archer Opteryx
09-22-2006 7:16 AM


Re: Origen of Alexandria
Many thanks for sharing this. Fascinating. I look forward to taking a look at Freeman's book
My pleasure It is quite an interesting and quick read. I purchased it along with Sam Harris' The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason in order to read them consecutively and put together the pieces (if any) of history repeating itself. I am almost done with Freeman's book and plan on starting Harris' this weekend.
Origen would be a 'universalist', then, if I understand that term correctly.
Correct. Some might argue that Universalists believe that no souls go to hell at all or that hell does not even exist, but the main theme is ultimate reconciliation with God which can imply wicked souls going to hell until that time that God returns the universe back to its original state and, thus, returning all souls back to Him because they were once a part of and equal to Him. This comes from Origen (at least in Christian thought...there are others who believed something similar. See Apokatastasis which is most likely what influenced Origen's thoughts in the first place).
That is to my knowledge the only time the possibility of Satan's redemption has been entertained seriously in Christian history. Anyone know of any others?
Are you referring to Origen or to Universalism? If Origen, that is incorrect. The apokatastasis link above mentions a few other early theologians who taught reconciliation. If the Universalists, then, yes, I believe that they are the only denominations (but probably not the only individual Christians) who believe in the ultimate redemption of all souls.
In Paradise Lost Milton's Satan famously says that it is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. I don't recall the exact context. Had Milton's God just given him a chance to enter heaven?
That's an interesting question and one I am not prepared to answer since I last read Paradise Lost about 12 years ago. Does anyone else know the context?
*adds PL to reading list*

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 234 (351779)
09-24-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Archer Opteryx
09-22-2006 7:16 AM


Re: Origen of Alexandria
Archer writes:
Origen would be a 'universalist', then, if I understand that term correctly.
I had to look that term up, Archer! I found this site at Wiki which explained a bit about Unitarian Universalism. They would tend to give Satan a break, I think!
The fundamentalists, on the other hand, can't give a break to Satan because Satan by definition represents the choice of disobedience.
Were Satan to totally reform, the entire choice of disobedience reverts back to the individual and that is a scary choice to possess.
For a fundamentalist, at any rate.

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Moe
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 234 (351803)
09-24-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
09-24-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Origen of Alexandria
Isn't it quite possible or likely that God knew in advance that Satan would disobey? Seems to be all part of the plan. Sort of like the Garden of Eden scene -- there were no surprises there really, were there? If God is All-Knowing, are we to suppose the wool was pulled over his eyes? Must have been all part of the plan. So my take on this reformation scenario is that, if that were to occur, there would be no surprises there either.
I also believe that God knew in advance that proponents of evolution would make a religion out of that.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 130 of 234 (352530)
09-27-2006 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Moe
09-24-2006 1:38 PM


Satan goes legit, no surprise. Now what?
Thanks for joining us, Moe. Welcome to EvC!
Moe:
Must have been all part of the plan. So my take on this reformation scenario is that, if that were to occur, there would be no surprises there either.
So what would happen if--just as according to plan--Satan reformed?
Please see the questions in the OP.
_
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Added title.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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 Message 129 by Moe, posted 09-24-2006 1:38 PM Moe has not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 234 (352564)
09-27-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Archer Opteryx
09-27-2006 1:53 AM


Re: Satan goes legit, no surprise. Now what?
Archer writes:
So what would happen if--just as according to plan--Satan reformed?
Come to chat and discuss this with me. (314am Denver time)
For one thing, if there was no villain, people would actually have a chance to be fully responsible for their own actions again...with no fear of deception.
God would not need to take the bullet for us anymore since there would be nobody shooting at us.
Relationship with God would still be very important, but Im not sure how He would expect us to relate to Him any differently than He expects now.

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 132 of 234 (361227)
11-03-2006 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
08-24-2006 11:27 AM


I would suggest that anybody who regards Satan as a real being already "knows" all they need to know. They don't have much interest in what-ifs.
They probably think questions like "What if Satan reformed?" are Satan-inspired.
In fact, that post in itself was satan inspired. You see how clever the devil is? Of course, I saw right through his bullshit.

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 Message 14 by ringo, posted 08-24-2006 11:27 AM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 133 of 234 (361235)
11-03-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Christian7
11-03-2006 6:43 PM


iBibleNano writes:
In fact, that post in itself was satan inspired.
What post are you refering to?
And maybe you can explain to us how you are privy to what is "satan inspired".

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 Message 132 by Christian7, posted 11-03-2006 6:43 PM Christian7 has replied

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 134 of 234 (361249)
11-03-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
11-03-2006 7:01 PM


Anything that is directly or alludes to a contradiction of the word of God, especially if it is worded in a (I can't explain it) way you did, is satan inspired.
I was referring to your post, but it could also apply to this whole thread in general.

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 Message 135 by ringo, posted 11-03-2006 7:29 PM Christian7 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 234 (361256)
11-03-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Christian7
11-03-2006 7:18 PM


Ah... so I'm "satan inspired".
That won't come as a surprize to some, but I'm a bit disappointed: since you have such a high regard for "Satan", I thought you might be a Satanist. I don't think we have one of those around here.
But on to the topic. The OP asks: If Satan reformed,
  1. Would God forgive?
  2. Would evil disappear?
  3. How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing?
  4. How would you get the memo?
Any thoughts?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:05 AM ringo has replied
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