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Author Topic:   Incompatibility of Geology with YEC
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 16 of 66 (352658)
09-27-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by subbie
09-27-2006 12:40 PM


Re: Summary
She may not feel that she needs to, but that does not remove the necessity of harmonizing. Harmonizing is an important goal of Christian apologetics and they consider "creation science" to be a vital tool in Christian apologetics. However, as we know but they still haven't figured out, "creation science" is counter-productive to the goal of harmonizing. Correction, we and many ex-Christians and many near-ex-Christians (ie, those who came close to losing their faith because of "creation science") know that "creation science" is counter-productive.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 66 (352659)
09-27-2006 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Archer Opteryx
09-27-2006 3:26 AM


Re: Denial: not a river in Egypt
It may or may not be window dressing as far as the actual work of science goes, but even in finding oil the actual use that is made of the OE time factor is very little, 2%, 5% I don't know
You have an interesting habit, Faith, of stating something in denial as if it were fact, then admitting at once that you don't know what you are talking about.
I was referring to having read some desriptions of oil exploration and giving my estimation of how much of it involved OE assumptions, though I can't give an exact percentage.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 13 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-27-2006 3:26 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 18 of 66 (352664)
09-27-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
09-27-2006 2:32 AM


Forget about the FIELDS, the ACTUAL geology refutes a young earth.
Perhaps he should have left out the fields of inquiry.
Simply though, the ACTUAL GEOLOGY, of the earth soundly refutes a global flood and a young earth merely by its existance.
Angular unconformities
Unconformities next to non-conformites (new favorite)
Unconformities in general
Intrusive igneous formations
Evaporite deposits
Metamorphism
Fossil topography such as buried river beds
Paleosols
Fossil strain
Quantity of radioactive decay
Quantity of continental drift
Quantity of KNOWN organic material
Are all completely and utterly unexplainable from a YEC standpoint without resorting to magic or such crazy ad-hoc explanations that they are equivalent to magic.
My new favorite is the one about differential unconformities described here (Message 17).
Other BIGGIES are things like fossil strain, and the mere existance of intrusive igneous structures with the cherry on the top being the phenocrysts that require all known laws of physics to change in order for them to form in any sort of young earth scenario.
YECism is refuted by the MERE FACTS without any need to even entertain the thought that some YEC "theorey" could even enter the ring with standard geologic theories.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 822
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 19 of 66 (352665)
09-27-2006 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jazzns
09-27-2006 3:30 PM


Re: Forget about the FIELDS, the ACTUAL geology refutes a young earth.
You left out one of my favorite examples geology Faith can't explain, the Hawaiian Islands. Only one "hot spot" and several islands, with the islands getting older and more eroded the further away they are from the hot spot. I would like to see Faith explain that!
Edited by kjsimons, : typo
Edited by kjsimons, : No reason given.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 66 (352675)
09-27-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by kjsimons
09-27-2006 3:35 PM


Re: Forget about the FIELDS, the ACTUAL geology refutes a young earth.
You left out one of my favorite examples geology Faith can't explain, the Hawaiian Islands. Only one "hot spot" and several islands, with the islands getting older and more eroded the further away they are from the hot spot. I would like to see Faith explain that!
Just to roll even further off-topic - this is similar to one of my favorite proofs of evolutionary methods.
In such a chain of islands (maybe the Hawaiians, not sure), several related beetle species were identified.
Geologic methods showed that the islands went from younger to older in one direction. Genetic analysis of beetle species on each of those islands, independantly, showed that the beetle species went from most-recently diverged to most-distantly diverged - in the exact same order. The youngest island geologically held the youngest species of beetles.
Two different labs, two different fields, two entirely different means of dating predicated on entirely unrelated assumptions - both arrive at the same fact. That's proof that the tools of evolutionary study aren't just made-up scientific wankery but legitimate and accurate investigations into physical reality.

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bernd
Member (Idle past 4006 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 21 of 66 (352682)
09-27-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
09-27-2006 3:21 PM


Re: Denial: not a river in Egypt
Hello Faith,
maybe you defend your idea that deep age is irrelevant to the task of finding oil by stratigraphic means in the following Is deep age irrelevant? which was designed specially for you. Its opening post reads:
( . )
A demonstration that “deep age” is more than an ideological construct of mainstream geology can be found for example in basin modeling [3], a set of methods which is used by the oil industry for oil exploration. The problem is to get an adequate understanding of the potential of an assumed oil field with sparse input data - for example by drill holes or seismic measurements. That’s a bit like a puzzle: We have only some pieces at hand and try to guess the whole picture. But there is at least one important difference to solving a puzzle: a geological model does not simply generate a way to connect the dots, it tries to reconstruct the development of a sedimentary basin based on well known and quantifiable processes like conductive cooling, erosion, tectonic uplift, which in most cases require geological time spans.
An example would be the modeling of the thermal history of a basin, which covers the "magnitude of maximum paleotemperatures in individual samples", "the timing of cooling from maximum paleotemperatures" and the "style of timing" to name only the most important aspects. This information is used to determine the thermal maturity for source rocks - that are rocks which (possibly) generate petroleum - when direct measurements are not available. Maturation is the process whereby hydrocarbon is formed from kerogen. This important change occurs only when kerogen is subjected to high temperature over long periods of time. A simple way to model this behavior is to calculate a measure called TTI, the time-temperature index. It uses a time factor, which is the time interval for a certain temperature (in millions of years) and a temperature factor which increases exponential, by a factor of 2 for every 10?C. By multiplying both factors one obtains a dimensionless number, the interval TTI, which represents the maturity acquired by the rock at given time interval and temperature. The total TTI is calculated by summing up incremental maturity values which when calculated over the whole time span gives a good measure for the overall maturity of the source rock. (see [4])
Maturity in combination with type and amount of the organic material present in a source rock (measured as TOC) gives a good indication whether drilling is recommendable or not. (see [5])
Hope to see you soon!
-Bernd

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 Message 17 by Faith, posted 09-27-2006 3:21 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 22 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 2:13 AM bernd has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 66 (352745)
09-28-2006 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by bernd
09-27-2006 5:16 PM


Not going to work
If it's technically over my head I can't judge it, can I? That's why I never posted to the earlier thread. It ends up being the usual snow job if I can't follow the argument.
The idea has to do with calculations of temperature, pressure and time which are used in the finding of oil, but unless I can do the calculations, and understand what they are based on, I can't make a judgment about the necessity or usefulness of them, can I? The calculations must be based on all kinds of unknowns, long time periods and pressures and temperatures that can't possibly ever have been observed or measured. How it all works I can't judge. Creationists in general do tend to find that most geological and biological processes don't take anywhere near the time evolutionists calculate.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 23 by bernd, posted 09-28-2006 5:02 PM Faith has replied

  
bernd
Member (Idle past 4006 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 23 of 66 (352917)
09-28-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
09-28-2006 2:13 AM


Re: Not going to work
Hello Faith,
One possibility to get around the problem, that you can’t follow my arguments, would be to ask questions.
But as long as you don’t understand the theoretical fundaments for basin modeling[1], apatite fission track analysis[2] or the estimation of the thermal maturity of source rock by TTI[3], which all are essential methods in petroleum geology, you are in no position to judge whether or to which degree the “OE factor” - as you put it - is relevant for this field.
Faith writes:
Creationists in general do tend to find that most geological and biological processes don't take anywhere near the time evolutionists calculate.
Which explains nicely why creationists in general don’t work in the petroleum industry.
-Bernd


References
[1] Message 208
[2] Message 214
[3] Message 1
Edited by bernd, : spelling corrected

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 5:14 PM bernd has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 66 (352923)
09-28-2006 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by bernd
09-28-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Not going to work
As usual I judge the OE factor from my KNOWLEDGE that God's word is true. I'd LIKE to be able to follow the example but some I just can't follow. Some other creationists with the requisite knowledge will have to deal with it.
I'm not interested enough in the topic at this point to ask questions.
As for creationists working in the oil industry, I'm sure they follow the script like anyone else and the formulas somehow or other work well enough for the purpose though probably not the way they are thought to work. What you and I are discussing is theory, so you can leave creationists working in the field out of it -- if you care to be fair that is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by bernd, posted 09-28-2006 6:56 PM Faith has replied
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 09-28-2006 8:30 PM Faith has replied

  
bernd
Member (Idle past 4006 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 25 of 66 (352947)
09-28-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
09-28-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Not going to work
Hello Faith,
Faith writes:
As usual I judge the OE factor from my KNOWLEDGE that God's word is true
which doesn’t count as an argument in a science thread as you know.
As for creationists working in the oil industry, I'm sure they follow the script like anyone else and the formulas somehow or other work well enough for the purpose though probably not the way they are thought to work.
Again, how can you know that the “formulas” probably do not work the way they are thought to work - given that you don’t understand them? I have provided two examples where basin modeling directly contradicts the young earth hypothesis that the earth is not older than 10.000 years. The first - see [1] - shows that all basins which are formed by conductive cooling, a prominent example beeing the atlantic ocean, would have a maximum depth of 94 m. The same formula used with the generally accepted age for this basin predicts reasonable well its actual form and depth. So why and how does this formula not work the way it is thought to work?
-Bernd


References
[1] Message 208

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 26 of 66 (352987)
09-28-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
09-28-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Not going to work
As for creationists working in the oil industry, I'm sure they follow the script like anyone else and the formulas somehow or other work well enough for the purpose though probably not the way they are thought to work. What you and I are discussing is theory, so you can leave creationists working in the field out of it -- if you care to be fair that is.
No, the thing about creationists (ie, YECs) working in the oil industry (ie, doing the actual geology work and working directly with the geological evidence) is that they don't remain YECs for long. Because they are no longer able to turn a blind eye to the rock-hard evidence that their YEC teachings insist cannot possibly exist if Scripture is to have any meaning.
And that is not "theory", but rather real-life experience learned the hard way by those who have had to go through it. You can't get much more empirical than that.

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 Message 24 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 5:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 8:34 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 66 (352988)
09-28-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by dwise1
09-28-2006 8:30 PM


Re: Not going to work
Prove it. You've asserted that YECs don't stay YECs long, prove it. So far there is an example of ONE. I know of YEC geologists who work AS geologists along with other geologists and are still YECs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 29 by dwise1, posted 09-28-2006 9:51 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 66 (352989)
09-28-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bernd
09-28-2006 6:56 PM


Re: Not going to work
I didn't give it as an argument, I stated it as my position. Take it or leave it. I already said all I have to say on the subject in this thread.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 29 of 66 (352998)
09-28-2006 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
09-28-2006 8:34 PM


Re: Not going to work
Prove it. You've asserted that YECs don't stay YECs long, prove it. So far there is an example of ONE.
You bet'cha! Start here: "Personal Stories of the Creation/Evolution Struggle" at No webpage found at provided URL: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/person.htm. It's on Glenn Morton's site, but this page links to several personal testimonals by former YECs.
Read Glenn's own story:
"The Transformation of a Young-earth Creationist" at No webpage found at provided URL: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/transform.htm
and
"Why I left Young-earth Creationism" at No webpage found at provided URL: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
Please note that he had hired several YEC geologists trained by the ICR and that they all suffered crises of faith. Not crises of geology, but crises of faith.
I'll also point you to Merle Hertzler, whom I met several years ago on CompuServe in the Religion Forum's "Science and Religion" section. He was a rarity among YECs in that he honestly argued for YEC and would actually research questions. He didn't last one year before he had switched over to the evolution side and now he's also an atheist, mainly because of how much YEC had lied to him. The final straw for him wasn't geology, but rather transitional fossils; he was researching the question and discovered that YEC's eternal refrain of "there are no transitional fossils" was an outright lie -- he found the literature in the library to be filled with them.
"Did We Evolve?" at No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/Evolve2.html.
I know of YEC geologists who work AS geologists along with other geologists and are still YECs.
Prove it.
And please don't try to palm off on us academics who don't work in the field on projects whose success rely on their working with the evidence.

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 Message 30 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 10:02 PM dwise1 has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 66 (352999)
09-28-2006 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by dwise1
09-28-2006 9:51 PM


Re: Not going to work
I'm talking about two geologists I personally know slightly who work in the field on real projects having to do with mining and aquifers and that sort of thing. They just do their job and keep their views to themselves. But I can't summon them to this forum.
I know about Glenn Morton already.
I can't go to any links. I'll just take your word for it. Sad. Yes, that's the problem with evolutionism. It attacks people's faith. The arguments are plausible but faith should resist them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by dwise1, posted 09-28-2006 9:51 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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