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Author Topic:   Are there two Christs in the Bible?
Terral
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 109 (356275)
10-13-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carbonstar
08-13-2006 2:10 PM


Melchizedek Is The Incarnation Of The Holy Spirit
Hi CarbonStar:
quote:
Carbon >> Reading the Bible can be very unclear and confusing. Who was Melchizedek and what made him so special that Christ had to be compared to him? Jesus is described as coming in the "order of Melchizedek" and he is described as having no descendants.
I see this as an indication that Melchizedek could have been another Christ.
We disagree. The true identity of Melchizedek is understood through His relationship with Abraham paying tithes (Heb. 7:8+9), as this key principal of Scripture is none other than the incarnation of the Holy Spirit. To gather the elemental precepts teaching this doctrine, we must travel all the way back to the Garden and examine Adam's relationship with the 'Tree Of Life.' But first, we should learn to recognize the three individual components making up the Tabernacle of Moses.
Imagine that Adam is walking around in the ”Court’ of the Tabernacle/Temple with the “tree of knowledge of good and evil” standing in the middle (Holy Place) and the ”tree of life’ standing behind the veil in the Holy of Holies. Adam entered the Holy Place to eat the forbidden fruit and stood one step away from passing through the second veil to eat from the tree of life and continue living in his fallen condition forever. Therefore, the Lord God removed Adam from the Garden and blocked the entrance using two cherubim “to guard the way to the tree of life.” Gen. 3:24.
The Lord God has the intention of restoring the “tree of life” (Holy Spirit) relationship with the chosen seed (Abraham, Isaac and Jabob) through Mosaic Law through the Tabernacle of Moses in the wilderness, then through the Temple in David’s and Solomon’s Kingdom of Israel. However, God shows us that Melchizedek (a Gentile) is making intercession for Gentiles long before any Jew ever walked upon this earth from the loins of Abraham. Scripture tips His hand by saying,
quote:
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.” Hebrews 7:3.
Melchizedek was made ”like’ the Son of God, which tells you He cannot ”be’ the Son of God Himself. God’s Son ”incarnated’ onto this earth as “Jesus Christ” and His Spirit of the Holy of Holies incarnated onto this earth as Melchizedek. He has no beginning ”of days,’ because He is seen working way back in Genesis 1:2 moving over the ”surface of the waters.’ And unbroken thread exists from Genesis 1:2 all the way to Revelation 22:17 where the “SPIRIT and the bride say, ”Come.’” That Holy Spirit is the ”My glory’ (Ex. 29:43) consecrating the sons of Israel leading Moses to say, “I pray You, show me Your Glory!” Exodus 22:18. The is the same “Glory of the Lord” filling the Tabernacle in Exodus 40:34+35. David makes the connections, saying,
quote:
“Do not cast me away from Your Presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.” Psalm 51:11.
“Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your Presence? Psalm 139:7.
Carry that back to the Garden and Adam’s relationship with the Lord God through the “Presence of the Lord” (Gen. 3:8).
This ”Presence’ and ”glory of the Lord’ is positioned in the Holy of Holies behind the Second Veil, when Zacharias (John’s father) entered the Temple to burn incense (Luke 1:9); which connects John the Baptist being baptized with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15). John the Baptist then passed the Holy Spirit baton to Jesus Christ in the Jordan (Matt. 3:15+16), until He passed the “Helper” (John 16:7) to the Twelve on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1+). In every case the Holy Spirit is consecrating “her seed” (Gen. 3:15), while separating them from the world and the ”wrath’ to come (Rom. 5:9). The same Holy Spirit will continue consecrating the sons of Israel from behind the Second Veil of Ezekiel’s restored Temple (Eze. 40+), until the antichrist appears to set up his “abomination of desolation” (Matt. 24:15 = Dan. 11:31+12:11-13), Christ intervenes (Matt. 24:30-31) and New Jerusalem finds Him saying “Come” (Rev. 22:17).
In Christ Jesus even now,
Terral

"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by carbonstar, posted 08-13-2006 2:10 PM carbonstar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 10-13-2006 10:12 AM Terral has replied
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 10-13-2006 1:07 PM Terral has not replied

  
Terral
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 109 (356286)
10-13-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
10-13-2006 10:12 AM


Terral Is Disagreeing With CarbonStar
Hi Prat:
quote:
Prat >> Who is "we"?
I am disagreeing with “CarbonStar” whose name appears in the “quote.” : 0 )
(Carbon and I) “We disagree.” This place needs a “Private Messaging” system allowing members to converse more freely, which would reduce the number of personal messages in the archives.
GL,
Terral

"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 10-13-2006 10:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
Terral
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 109 (356653)
10-15-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by doctrbill
10-13-2006 10:24 PM


The Original Manuscripts Of Our Modern Translations Are Written In Greek
Hi Dr. Bill:
quote:
Bill >> When Christian scholars translated the Greek Bible into Latin, they retained the Greek word by way of transliteration: 'Christos.' When the Latin Bible was brought to English, all instances of the word Christ were expunged from the Old Testament by way of translation. Everywhere the holy text once read: Christos, it now reads: 'anointed.'
Your position is that of a historical revisionist, as people like the Lockman Foundation scholars bringing us the New American Standard Bible worked from the Critical Text never translated into Latin or any other language. The New King James Version is a translation from the Received Text, or the Antiochian version of the Greek manuscripts ALSO without any Latin translation. Everything from your post above is based upon a false notion that the Egyptian (Critical Text), Antiochian (Received Text) and indeed the Majority Text (combining similarities of all known manuscripts What about the Majority Text? ) are derived from a “Latin” translation. There are many ”anointed’ principals in Scripture, but Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten” Son OF GOD. John 3:16. Scripture says,
quote:
“He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). John 1:41.
“The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham . . .”. Matthew 1:1.
It is not that Jesus Christ is ”a’ Messiah, but He is ”the’ Messiah to the Jews seeking the fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy in Christ’s day 2000 years ago. We can look these things up in our ”Greek’ Lexicons without ever using any Latin anything. We should understand that Christ, Peter and his fishermen brothers and fellow disciples were all speaking on their native Syrian dialect of Aramaic, which Israel spoke since their final captivity in 6 B.C. However, NT Scripture is given to us in the commercial ”Greek’ language of commerce used throughout the known civilized world in Paul’s day, which appears in the Critical and Received Texts from which our modern Bibles are translated.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral

"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by doctrbill, posted 10-13-2006 10:24 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by doctrbill, posted 10-15-2006 1:39 PM Terral has replied

  
Terral
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 109 (356853)
10-16-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by doctrbill
10-15-2006 1:39 PM


Please Back Up Your Bold Assertions With Third Party References
Hi DrBill:
quote:
Terral writes >> Everything from your post above is based upon a false notion that ... [various texts] ... are derived from a “Latin” translation.
Dr.Bill >> That is not what I said, nor is it what I intended to say.
What? Please forgive, but that is exactly what you said:
quote:
DrBill Original >> When Christian scholars translated the Greek Bible into Latin, they retained the Greek word by way of transliteration: 'Christos.'
When the Latin Bible was brought to English, all instances of the word Christ were expunged from the Old Testament by way of translation. Everywhere the holy text once read: Christos, it now reads: 'anointed.'
Your statement above should be retracted, because nothing could be FARTHER from ”the truth.’ Translations derived from the Latin ”Vulgate’ ( Vulgate - Wikipedia ) were deemed “flaws of the Great Bible” ( Great Bible - Wikipedia ) by the time Elizabeth 1st took the throne ( King James Version - Wikipedia ), until in 1568 the church responded with the “Bishops’ Bible” ( Bishops' Bible - Wikipedia ). The King James Version replaced that version in 1611 as the “de facto standard of the Church of England.” Anyone can pick up an Exhaustive Concordance for their particular translation to realize that their New Testament is taken from either the Received Text (KJV) or the Critical Text (NASB) taken from the Egyptian Minority Texts or the later Byzantine Majority Texts” ( King James Version - Wikipedia ). This notion that Bible scholars have translated these original manuscripts from Latin to English in our modern Bibles is preposterous. That is why Strong’s Lexicon and Vines’ Expository Dictionary of NT Words have numbered ”Greek’ terms for the words in your NT.
quote:
Terral Original >> Jesus ... is ”the’ Messiah to the Jews seeking the fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy in Christ’s day 2000 years ago.
Dr.Bill >> The majority of Jews did not believe in Jesus because he did not fulfill the prophecies, not even those made in his own time. Jesus did not do what messiah was supposed to do: Save his people from their enemies.
What the Jews believed or did not believe changes nothing about the ”two Christ’s’ (Melchizedek) hypothesis of this thread, OR your attempts to misrepresent some “Latin translation influence” corrupting our New Testament. Scripture verifies that Jesus Christ is the Messiah (Matt. 1:1) in the very first verse of the New Testament.
quote:
Terral Original >> We can look these things up in our ”Greek’ Lexicons without ever using any Latin anything.
Dr.Bill >> Are you prejudiced against the Latin language?
Prejudiced? Not at all, as I took a couple years of Latin in school. However, our OT is written in Hebrew with parts in Aramaic, while our NT is translated from the Greek with a few terms also derived from the Aramaic. These Latin remarks of yours have no basis in reality whatsoever, unless you want to study the transliterations leading up to the Old King James Version becoming the official Bible of the Church of England.
quote:
Dr.Bill >> You won't find the word 'salvation,' in your Greek lexicon, because the word salvation isn't Greek, it's Latin. Are you prepared to forgo the use of this word in your religious liturgy?
I thought this discussion could not get more ridiculous. Salvation (soteria #4991 = Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible ) is a feminine noun used 45 times in the NT; of a derivative of “soter” (#4990) meaning “savior, deliverer, preserver ( Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible ).” The common Latin term for ”salvation’ is “salus” ( http://sunsite.ubc.ca/LatinDictionary/ ) or “palma” ( http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ ) if you want the ”glory, prize’ connotation.
quote:
Dr.Bill >> You won't find the word 'lucifer,' in your Greek lexicon. Are you prepared to forgo the use of this word in your religious speech? Are you prepared to stop uttering this term just because it's Latin?
Lucifer does not appear anywhere in my NASB. “Lucifer” is a transliteration of the Greek term “heylel” (#1966 = Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible ) meaning “light bearer” derived from “halal” (#1984 = Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible ) meaning “to shine.” Satan is called the “angel of light” in 2Corinthians 11:14, as his servants are called the “servants of righteousness” (2Cor. 11:15) in the next verse. There is no room in my Bible for transliterating Hebrew or Greek terms into any Latin terms whatsoever. The reason is that we must trace the ”roots’ of these words to the original Hebrew or Greek terms from which they are taken. Trying to trace “Lucifer” to any Hebrew or Greek term simply does not compute . . .
quote:
Terral Original >> Christ, Peter and his fishermen brothers and fellow disciples were all speaking on their native Syrian dialect of Aramaic, ... However, NT Scripture is given to us in the commercial ”Greek’
Dr.Bill >> Even if your statement were true ... So What? You have missed the point entirely.
Heh . . . No sir. Your hand is caught in the cookie jar with this “Christos” translated into Latin nonsense and these “Galileans” (Acts 2:7) all spoke in their fisherman’s dialect of Aramaic, which finds Christ on the cross, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani?” Or, “My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?” Eloi (#1682 = Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible ) is NOT a Greek term, but is “of Aramaic origin” NEVER translated into Latin or German, because it appears in our Bibles in the original Aramaic to THEN be translated in the same verse. “Sabachthani” (#4518) is an Aramaic transliteration of “sh@baq” (#7662 = Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible ) meaning “to leave, let alone.” Christ, the Twelve and most everyone else speaking in the Four Gospels are addressing everyone in their native Aramaic tongue. This is what surprised all the men from all the nations under heaven (Acts 2:5), when they heard these Galilean fishermen speaking in their “own language” (Acts 2:6+8), because they were expecting to hear Peter and the others speaking in Aramaic.
quote:
DrBill >> The point is this: The holy scripture has been purposely tweaked; methodically purged of the word 'Christ.' What reason is there to do this, other than to increase the apparent uniqueness of Jesus "who is called Christ."
Bullony. People like the Lockman Foundation scholars base their ”translation’ on the original Critical Text Greek manuscripts and stake their reputation on their work being as concise and deliberate as humanly possible. I disagree with many of their decisions, but we have copies of the originals in order to make our own determinations. We should agree that copyist errors appear in both the Received and Critical Texts, which allows us to carefully examine those differences and take the right fork in the path.
quote:
Terral Original >> There are many ”anointed’ principals in Scripture, but Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten” Son OF GOD. John 3:16.
DrBill >> Another can of worms you open here. I would love to help you eat some. Later perhaps. I am tiring of this post already.
No thank you, as I do not believe a single word coming from your mouth. We were just nearing the topic when you tuckered out. Next time please point us into the direction of your third party references, before coming out here and making these bold “Christos into Greek into Latin into English” assertions that really make no sense at all. We certainly do not want others to be led astray. Right? GL in the debates,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral

"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by doctrbill, posted 10-15-2006 1:39 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by doctrbill, posted 10-16-2006 9:30 PM Terral has not replied
 Message 44 by doctrbill, posted 10-16-2006 10:01 PM Terral has not replied
 Message 45 by doctrbill, posted 10-16-2006 10:17 PM Terral has not replied

  
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