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Author Topic:   Are there two Christs in the Bible?
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 39 of 109 (356417)
10-13-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by carbonstar
08-13-2006 2:10 PM


carbonstar writes:
Melchizedek could have been another Christ.
Why not?! Let him join the club. There are a plenty of Christs in the Bible, as our friend ramoss has been trying to point out.
Problem is, translators have tweaked the text in such a way as to eliminate all mention of any Christ save Jesus.
You see: the word 'Christ' is not English, it's Greek.
When Jewish scholars translated the Hebrew to Greek, they gave the word 'Christos' where our language would call for the word 'anointed.'
When Christian scholars translated the Greek Bible into Latin, they retained the Greek word by way of transliteration: 'Christos.'
When the Latin Bible was brought to English, all instances of the word Christ were expunged from the Old Testament by way of translation. Everywhere the holy text once read: Christos, it now reads: 'anointed.'
In unlike manner, when it came to the New Testament, those same translators declined to bring Christos into English; thus making Christ Jesus appear to be the only one upon whom this title was ever bestowed.
Since your question includes a specific query into the possibility of other Christs, I hereby propose that we consider the relative virtues of another royal Son of God, say: Christ Solomon.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by carbonstar, posted 08-13-2006 2:10 PM carbonstar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Terral, posted 10-15-2006 10:29 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 41 of 109 (356689)
10-15-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Terral
10-15-2006 10:29 AM


Re: The Original Manuscripts Of Our Modern Translations Are Written In Greek
Terral writes:
Everything from your post above is based upon a false notion that ... [various texts] ... are derived from a “Latin” translation.
That is not what I said, nor is it what I intended to say.
Jesus ... is ”the’ Messiah to the Jews seeking the fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecy in Christ’s day 2000 years ago.
The majority of Jews did not believe in Jesus because he did not fulfill the prophecies, not even those made in his own time. Jesus did not do what messiah was supposed to do: Save his people from their enemies.
We can look these things up in our ”Greek’ Lexicons without ever using any Latin anything.
Are you prejudiced against the Latin language?
You won't find the word 'salvation,' in your Greek lexicon, because the word salvation isn't Greek, it's Latin. Are you prepared to forgo the use of this word in your religious liturgy?
You won't find the word 'lucifer,' in your Greek lexicon. Are you prepared to forgo the use of this word in your religious speech? Are you prepared to stop uttering this term just because it's Latin?
Christ, Peter and his fishermen brothers and fellow disciples were all speaking on their native Syrian dialect of Aramaic, ... However, NT Scripture is given to us in the commercial ”Greek’
Even if your statement were true ... So What? You have missed the point entirely.
The point is this: The holy scripture has been purposely tweaked; methodically purged of the word 'Christ.' What reason is there to do this, other than to increase the apparent uniqueness of Jesus "who is called Christ." "
There are many ”anointed’ principals in Scripture, but Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten” Son OF GOD. John 3:16.
Another can of worms you open here. I would love to help you eat some. Later perhaps. I am tiring of this post already.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Terral, posted 10-15-2006 10:29 AM Terral has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Terral, posted 10-16-2006 12:06 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 43 of 109 (356954)
10-16-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Terral
10-16-2006 12:06 PM


Re: Please Back Up Your Bold Assertions With Third Party References
In your hurry to deny the inescapable conlusions of my first hand research, you have
overlooked the most obvious FIRST PLACE TO LOOK regarding all questions of word origin:
THE !@#$%^&* DICTIONARY.
SALVATION ETYMOLOGY: American Heritage Dictionary
See the source. The special characters don't copy well.
Middle English savacioun,
from Old French sauvacion,
from Late Latinsalvatio ,
salvation-, from salvatus,
past participle of salvare,
to save ; see salvage
No matter how convoluted your imagination regarding the evolution of holy scripture, there have been only three Major languages involved. Major being judged by the power of the people into whose language said scripture was translated.
  • Greek (first translation ever, in the language of the dominant empire
  • Latin (Roman), (in the language of the dominant empire, and,
  • Anglo-American (in the language of the dominant empire
These are the Holy Trinity for lay scholarship in America.
All other translations, while interesting and instructive, are side-trips by comparison.
LUCIFER ETYMOLOGY: American Heritage Dicitionary
Middle English, from Old English,
morning star, Lucifer,
from Latin Lucifer,
from lucifer, light-bringer :
lux , luc-, light; see leuk-
in Indo-European roots + -fer, -fer
No hard feelings. We all go off half-cocked sometimes; shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes.
You wouldn't believe the load of crap I've had to drop, in order bend down and pick up the truth.
Need some Salva- for that holey foot?

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Terral, posted 10-16-2006 12:06 PM Terral has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 44 of 109 (356955)
10-16-2006 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Terral
10-16-2006 12:06 PM


Re: Please Back Up Your Bold Ass
Terral writes:
“Lucifer” is a transliteration of the Greek term “heylel”
  • No, its not.
  • Heylel is not Greek, and
  • You don't understand 'transliteration.'
BACK TO THE DICTIONARY BUBBA!
TRANSLITERATION TRANSITIVE VERB:
trans·lit·er·at·ed , trans·lit·er·at·ing , trans·lit·er·ates
To represent (letters or words) in the corresponding characters of another alphabet.
Transliteration is performed to enable the speakers of one language to 'sound out' the phonemes of another. Heylel itself is a transliterated Hebrew term which untutored readers cannot sound out for themselves. Lucifer cannot be a transliteration of Heylel because it does not at all convey the sound of Heylel from Hebrew to Latin. In order to qualify as a transliteration, Heylel and Lucifer would have to be similar in the way they sound. As it turns out, Heylel is the sound of the Hebrew word, written in Latin characters. Those who translated the holy scripture into Latin did not transliterate the Hebrew or the Greek in this instance. Instead they translated it. If you are actually studying to learn, then you probably already know the meaning of the word Lucifer.
Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot. Again.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Terral, posted 10-16-2006 12:06 PM Terral has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 45 of 109 (356957)
10-16-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Terral
10-16-2006 12:06 PM


Re: Please Back Up Your Bold Assertions With Third Party References
Terral writes:
“Lucifer” is a transliteration of the Greek term “heylel”
... we must trace the ”roots’ of these words to the original Hebrew or Greek terms from which they are taken.
... Trying to trace “Lucifer” to any Hebrew or Greek term simply does not compute . . .
Good luck with that confusion.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Terral, posted 10-16-2006 12:06 PM Terral has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 46 of 109 (357069)
10-17-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by carbonstar
08-13-2006 2:10 PM


Clarification of Meaning - Term: 'Christ'
Any serious Bible study needs to clarify the biblical definition of terms. The importance of parsing the Old Testament definition of the term 'Christ' cannot be over-emphasized.
What's that you say? The word Christ doesn't appear in the Old Testament? Well then, you must be reading the Bible in English. The word 'Christ' appears plentifully in the old Greek and Latin Bibles. Why has the word 'Christ' been removed from my Bible?
We must understand what this term meant to Jews before Saul of Tarsus and the Christian Church gave it their special spin. The Jewish understanding of the term 'Christ' had not changed from the time when they applied it to any and every king of Israel. There is no reason for us to assume that Jesus spoke this word with some new, special, and hidden definition in mind; just waiting for Saul, and the RCC to explain it.
I maintain: it was a term of power politics which for the Jews, inspired national pride; and for the Romans, raised the specter of a Jewish rebellion.
Seems to me, Christians should have already been told about this.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by carbonstar, posted 08-13-2006 2:10 PM carbonstar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2006 8:29 PM doctrbill has not replied
 Message 50 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 8:09 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 47 of 109 (358033)
10-21-2006 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by doctrbill
10-17-2006 1:25 PM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term: 'Christ'
Come now my friends.
Am I alone in this realization.
Hasn't anyone among you suspected the truth of this?
Not even suspected it?

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2006 1:25 PM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 10-22-2006 9:30 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 49 of 109 (358138)
10-22-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by purpledawn
10-22-2006 9:30 AM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term: 'Christ'
purpledawn writes:
It is scary how much we are at the mercy of our translations.
Indeed.
Virtually every translationn has been the result of committee action. Men agreeing to disagree for the sake of getting out their product (a revision of holy scripture). Determining by majority vote, what the holy scripture shall say.
In the course of comparing various versions I see strengths and weaknesses in the committee approach. One advantage is that it allows the work to be completed in less than a lifetime. There may be disadvantage in the fact that committee members possess varying degrees of expertise and honesty. I have observed that some committee members are bold and liberal with their translation while other are cautious and/or squeamish.
One of my favorite examples of this reality comes from the Living Bible (now replaced by the more traditional and far less colorful: New Living Translation). The first example is outstandingly liberal yet piercingly perceptive and, to my knowledge, unprecedented among the hundred or so versions extant.
Ezekiel 16:7
quote:
King James Version: "I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: [thy] breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou [wast] naked and bare."
quote:
Living Bible: "You grew up and became tall, slender and supple, a jewel among jewels. And when you reached the age of maidenhood your breasts were full-formed and your pubic hair had grown; yet you were naked."
quote:
New Living Translation: "I made you thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful. Your breasts were formed, your hair grew, but you were naked and bare."
The Living Bible is, technically speaking, a paraphrase. Sometimes paraphrase is the best way to go. Sometimes direct translation destroys the intended imagery. This is an especially significant matter in the case of Ezekiel. Ezekiel was quite fond of pornographic imagery. No one really doubts that the hair in question is pubic and failing to say so may wrongly suggest to some readers that the young lady's head had been shorn. Dropping in the word 'pubic' is consistent with the earthy imagery for which Ezekiel is known and loved.
I had another example in mind; an example of an exceptionally timid paraphrase from the Living Bible but haven't been able to locate it this morning. If and when I rediscover it, I'll be happy to pass it along.
Suffice it to say that more honest renditions of holy scripture are 'out there.'

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 10-22-2006 9:30 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2755 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 51 of 109 (358733)
10-25-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Archer Opteryx
10-25-2006 8:09 AM


Re: Clarification of Meaning - Term 'Christ'
Archer Opterix writes:
A title like 'Annointed One', though common to all Greek speakers, was loaded with specific cultural implications.
Hi Archer,
Thank you for that informative blurb. It explains a lot and complicates the issue.
Life was so much simpler before I learned the whole truth.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 8:09 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
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