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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 91 of 354 (358763)
10-25-2006 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hyroglyphx
10-25-2006 11:16 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
nj,
God knows your outcome before you were made.
Then you have no free will, just the illusion of it. You cannot possibly make a choice if you are predestined to do something.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2006 11:16 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 10-25-2006 11:43 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2006 4:01 PM mark24 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 92 of 354 (358767)
10-25-2006 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by mark24
10-25-2006 11:23 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Then you have no free will, just the illusion of it. You cannot possibly make a choice if you are predestined to do something.
That does not compute. God's knowing what you are going to do with your free will doesn't interfere with your doing it freely. You still have to go through the decision-making processes, still have to think things through and choose, or react impulsively or whatever the case may be. Even a series of changed decisions on your part can be foreknown by God, even predestined by God, without its affecting the processes you have to go through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 11:23 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 1:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 93 of 354 (358782)
10-25-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
10-25-2006 11:43 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Faith,
God's knowing what you are going to do with your free will doesn't interfere with your doing it freely.
Yes it does.
If you have a choice, a or b, & god knows that you are going to "choose" b, then you have no choice but to choose b. You cannot choose "a", you are not exercising free will even though you might think you are.
It's like watching a movie, does he pull the trigger or doesn't he? He does what is written in the script, & can do no other.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 10-25-2006 11:43 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Christian7, posted 11-02-2006 7:03 PM mark24 has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 354 (358804)
10-25-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by mark24
10-25-2006 11:23 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Then you have no free will, just the illusion of it. You cannot possibly make a choice if you are predestined to do something.
You aren't predestined to it. You can choose whatever you want. Humans or anything material is bound by the contraints of time. We amble along a timeline. Time means nothing to something outside of that timeline. Consider God to be an observer to the timeline but doesn't affect it. You aren't predestined to do anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 11:23 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 4:24 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 95 of 354 (358808)
10-25-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hyroglyphx
10-25-2006 4:01 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
nj,
You aren't predestined to it. You can choose whatever you want.
No, you can't do whatever you want, you can do one thing only. It has been foreseen, ergo it is predestined.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2006 4:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by xXGEARXx, posted 10-26-2006 6:54 PM mark24 has replied

  
xXGEARXx
Member (Idle past 5120 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 96 of 354 (359123)
10-26-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by mark24
10-25-2006 4:24 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
So, if I do not believe in God it is ok to say I have indeed freewill? If I do believe in God then I do not have freewill because my whole life is predestined?
So the only way I have freewill, according to you, is for God to not be omniscient or for Him to simply not exist?
I can do whatever I want if God is real or not. If He knows everything I am going to do, then good for Him. The point is, I control my life. I make the choices in it, even if He knows what they are.
If indeed, as you say, I don't have freewill- then this is the best joke God has played yet. Or the nothingness. Either way, Thanks guys! It sure does seem like I have freewill out the ass!
Edited by xXGEARXx, : I choose not to tell. lol...or did I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 4:24 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 10-27-2006 3:35 AM xXGEARXx has not replied
 Message 98 by mark24, posted 10-27-2006 5:40 AM xXGEARXx has not replied
 Message 99 by iano, posted 10-27-2006 5:59 AM xXGEARXx has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 97 of 354 (359216)
10-27-2006 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by xXGEARXx
10-26-2006 6:54 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
The notion of freewill fails the test when we consider the millions-nay-billions of babies and young children dying over the generations, who never get a chance to grow, learn, dwell on the matter and select a choice. What happened to their freewill? Where was The Big Guy protecting their right to make a decision? Either He compounded the punishment of Adam by creating the many diseases we fight unaided, or He doesn`t care. Or He doesn`t exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by xXGEARXx, posted 10-26-2006 6:54 PM xXGEARXx has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 98 of 354 (359234)
10-27-2006 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by xXGEARXx
10-26-2006 6:54 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
xXGEARXx,
That's about the size of it, yes.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by xXGEARXx, posted 10-26-2006 6:54 PM xXGEARXx has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 99 of 354 (359235)
10-27-2006 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by xXGEARXx
10-26-2006 6:54 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
If I do believe in God then I do not have freewill because my whole life is predestined?
Mark24 is picking one possibility: God foreknowing what you will do meaning you are pre-destined to do it.
There is another possibility. God knows what you will do because you have already done it. And because you have already done it he is merely looking at the choices you made: we live in time elapsing and he does not.
Its a little like watching YouTube. The video buffers ahead but the choices people are making occur at the rate the movie is played in real time. The choices that will be made are contained in the buffered bit now - we (as God) can flick ahead to view them and thus foreknow what the people in real time are going to chose. Nothing that happens in the buffered bit is the result of anything other than the free will choices that will be made. God foreknowing as an observer - not a predestinator.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by xXGEARXx, posted 10-26-2006 6:54 PM xXGEARXx has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 100 of 354 (360925)
11-02-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by mark24
10-25-2006 1:07 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Yes it does.
If you have a choice, a or b, & god knows that you are going to "choose" b, then you have no choice but to choose b. You cannot choose "a", you are not exercising free will even though you might think you are.
It's like watching a movie, does he pull the trigger or doesn't he? He does what is written in the script, & can do no other.
Mark
I would agree with you on this if it were not for a simple detail which you have not included in your argument.
Normally, an athiest will make the following deduction.
God knows what is going to happen, therefore it will happen.
What they fail to realize is that if we slip in a minor detail to the argument the contradiction dissapears. The revised argument goes like this:
God knows what is going to happen because that is what will happen, however the person causing it to happen could chose to do something else, but if that was so God would have fornown that outcome, therefore God's forknowledge does not actively predestine future events.
Any failure to understand the simplicity of this argument is the result of ignorant thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 1:07 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 11-02-2006 7:10 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 102 by mark24, posted 11-02-2006 7:52 PM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 354 (360926)
11-02-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Christian7
11-02-2006 7:03 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Any failure to understand the simplicity of this argument is the result of ignorant thinking.
Any failure to understand that your argument is fallacious and circular is the result of plain ignorant thinking.
If God knows the outcome it is predestined.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Christian7, posted 11-02-2006 7:03 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 102 of 354 (360947)
11-02-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Christian7
11-02-2006 7:03 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
iBibleNano,
What Jar said.
Any failure to understand the simplicity of this argument is the result of ignorant thinking.
All you have done is make the sentence longer. If god forknew the outcome it must have been predestined.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Christian7, posted 11-02-2006 7:03 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Christian7, posted 11-03-2006 4:28 PM mark24 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 103 of 354 (361175)
11-03-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by mark24
11-02-2006 7:52 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
All you have done is make the sentence longer. If god forknew the outcome it must have been predestined.
Mark
You have not demonstrated any logical connection between forknowledge and predestination. That connection is not built into the laws of logic itself. So you will need to break it down into further arguments in order to demonstrate the connection between forknowledge and predestination because I simply don't see it.
What we have here is a case of humans disagreeing on what the laws of logic are. So far the Christians are playing along with the athiests by abiding by their rules, but they don't need to, because there is no connection between forknowledge and predestination. Forknowledge does not equal causation.
God's knowledge of an event does not cause it to happen, therefore it is not predestined. God simply understands that it will happen. He doesn't say, "OK, it WILL happen like this." (There are several instances where he does but for this argument I'm talking about when he doesn't.)
To say, "God knows it will happen, therefore it will happen." is corre ct, but this does not imply predestination. It simply means that, "It will happen, therefore God knows it will happen." They both mean the same thing, and have nothing to do with predestination.
So, for the most part, athiests have no valid argument in reguards to this. Once again they have demonstrated their own fallicious man-like reasoning and inability to grasp the infinite mind of God.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by mark24, posted 11-02-2006 7:52 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by mark24, posted 11-03-2006 9:19 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 105 by Asgara, posted 11-03-2006 9:23 PM Christian7 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 104 of 354 (361301)
11-03-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Christian7
11-03-2006 4:28 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
iBibleNano,
You have not demonstrated any logical connection between forknowledge and predestination.
How can foreknowledge not be predestination? How can something that is absolutely known about the future not be predestined?
What we have here is a case of humans disagreeing on what the laws of logic are.
No, humans agree what the laws of logic are, for quite obvious reasons. What we have is religious nutjobs being unable to accept that not only does the evidence not support you, but neither does logic. Ergo, in your opinion, not only does a requirement for evidence go out of the window, but so does logic, too.
In another thread I am involved in a discussion with another atheist who maintains that religion actually does no harm, or at least not enough that we should be bothered about..
Thank you for so eloquently supporting my position that it actually does.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Christian7, posted 11-03-2006 4:28 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Christian7, posted 11-03-2006 11:57 PM mark24 has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 105 of 354 (361305)
11-03-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Christian7
11-03-2006 4:28 PM


few questions
Does your god know all about me before I am even born?
Does your god know what I will choose before I choose it?
Is your god the sole creator of life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Christian7, posted 11-03-2006 4:28 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:00 AM Asgara has replied

  
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