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Author Topic:   Is it Rape or Not
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 260 (360250)
10-31-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by iceage
10-31-2006 7:04 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
Oh my! Somehow I doubt "feelings", in the sense you are thinking about, were much of a factor here - certainly not her "feelings". I give you points for your naive optimism. Read a little further down the page and some these "persons" were burnt as an offering.
You are going to have to quote this. There is no such thing in the Bible as burning human beings as an offering to God, although there are reports of the heathen nations doing that. In any case I have no idea what you are referring to.
I don't think anybody is disputing this point so the emphasis is really not necessary. However when someone claims these are the thoughts or word of the God you start to get some static.
Some of the Bible is simple historical reports that we trust as truthful reports because God oversaw their reporting. It certainly doesn't mean that God approves of everything that is reported. What exactly are you talking about.

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 Message 42 by iceage, posted 10-31-2006 7:04 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by iceage, posted 10-31-2006 8:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 65 by iceage, posted 10-31-2006 9:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 260 (360252)
10-31-2006 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by iceage
10-31-2006 7:19 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
Can you speculate why the virgins were only spared? If you answer anything please answer that - this will require some imagination.
I already answered this from various Bible commentaries. How did you manage to miss it? The virgins were not held to be guilty of the crime of seducing the Israelites into sexual misconduct.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 260 (360254)
10-31-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by tudwell
10-31-2006 6:49 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
The problem is the Bible is supposed to be universal, for all people in all times. Yet this passage condones kidnapping and rape.
It does no such thing.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 260 (360255)
10-31-2006 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by docpotato
10-31-2006 6:55 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
Ummmmm... how 'bout he doesn't screw her at all?
Um, how about you go and talk to the various nations in 1500 BC about their practices with captives.

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 Message 40 by docpotato, posted 10-31-2006 6:55 PM docpotato has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 260 (360256)
10-31-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by docpotato
10-31-2006 6:58 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
According to modern law, not ancient law.
Absolute morality at its finest!
The problem here, as usual, appears to be with "rightly dividing the word of truth." God's Law was an improvement over ancient law, as has already been said. Nobody has defended ancient law as the gold standard of law. I've said ancient customs reflect fallen human nature, not the redeemed nature that God brings about. Ancient law and in fact most human laws reflect fallen nature to some extent. But I assume our laws now, after centuries of Biblical influence, are better than the old.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 260 (360258)
10-31-2006 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by subbie
10-31-2006 7:05 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
Maybe I missed something somewhere, but I thought this thread was about a passage from the bible, not simply a discussion of an "ancient culture."
You missed a great deal apparently. The Old Testament was written in the context of ancient Middle Eastern culture, which of COURSE strongly influenced the attitudes of the various peoples, including the Israelites. God's Law was given into the midst of this cultural context, both reflecting what was God-given in it, and prescribing correctives to what was wrong with it. People here tend to make the mistake of attributing mere fallen human culture to God, and the other mistake of not reading His law in the context which it is correcting.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 260 (360259)
10-31-2006 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taz
10-31-2006 1:05 PM


quote:
actually, I never understood the whole men attracted to virgins thingy.
Virgins don't know any better and so can't criticize your skillz in the sack.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 260 (360260)
10-31-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by subbie
10-31-2006 7:10 PM


Re: actually pretty practical
This is the problem with reading such a passage out of context. You have to know the whole historical setting in which God orders this punishment of the Midianites, or you end up trying to abstract out principles that are not really general but only apply in this particular case.
I understand a similar point can be made about most of the passages that bigots like to use to show the bible condemns homosexuality.
In this case the situation is reversed. It is those who refuse to accept that the Bible condemns homosexuality who point to context in the vain hope of finding a way to twist a few words to prove that it's really talking about something else, but in this case there is no context needed. The condemnation of homosexual acts is absolute and unambiguous.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 54 of 260 (360262)
10-31-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
10-31-2006 8:26 PM


Re: actually pretty practical
The condemnation of homosexual acts is absolute and unambiguous.
How do you figure that? The passages refer to same-sex activity in the context of religious prostitution and sexual rites, common activities at the time the epistles were written, and even that part isn't the words of Jesus, it's just Paul(?) mouthing off his own opinions. There's nothing at all in the Bible that suggests that the prohibition of homosexual activities extends beyond that.
Every time "men giving themselves to unnatural lusts" or whatever is described, it's in the context of "what those pagans next door are doing in their temple, but we're not like that." That's pretty contextual, I'd say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 8:26 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 55 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 8:39 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 260 (360263)
10-31-2006 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by crashfrog
10-31-2006 8:35 PM


homosexuality
Paul is the servant of God and his teachings are from God.
The homosexual designs on the angels who visited Lot were not made in the context of temple worship.
This is off topic however, so if you want to discuss it further I'm sure there are plenty of threads out there on the subject already.
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
There is no context here whatever.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by crashfrog, posted 10-31-2006 8:35 PM crashfrog has replied

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 56 of 260 (360265)
10-31-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
10-31-2006 8:05 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
There is no such thing in the Bible as burning human beings as an offering to God
Perhaps subject matter for another thread, only one atrocity at a time.
Check up on Numbers 31:28-29
certainly doesn't mean that God approves of everything that is reported
These are supposed commands from God!!! Not historical artifacts.
I am comforted that you are trying to distance God from these commands although....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 8:52 PM iceage has replied

  
docpotato
Member (Idle past 5067 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 57 of 260 (360266)
10-31-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
10-31-2006 8:13 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
Um, how about you go and talk to the various nations in 1500 BC about their practices with captives.
Well, it just seems that God could have, you know, told them not to.
Edited by docpotato, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 260 (360267)
10-31-2006 8:43 PM


Homosexuality is NOT the subject
No more on this theme.

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    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1487 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 59 of 260 (360268)
    10-31-2006 8:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
    10-31-2006 8:39 PM


    Re: homosexuality
    deleted
    Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 60 of 260 (360271)
    10-31-2006 8:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by iceage
    10-31-2006 8:43 PM


    Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
    I can't imagine the mentality it would take to read the passage about dividing the spoils among the various classes to include sacrificing human beings.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
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