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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 136 of 234 (361356)
11-04-2006 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
11-03-2006 7:29 PM


Ah... so I'm "satan inspired".
That won't come as a surprize to some, but I'm a bit disappointed: since you have such a high regard for "Satan", I thought you might be a Satanist. I don't think we have one of those around here.
But on to the topic. The OP asks: If Satan reformed,
1. Would God forgive?
2. Would evil disappear?
3. How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing?
4. How would you get the memo?
Any thoughts?
This is like asking what five divided by zero is. The answer is undefined because it doesn't make any sense. It's not even an issue.
This is why the question doesn't make sense:
1. Satan won't reform.
2. Jesus didn't die for satan.
3. Angels don't have free will anymore (as far as good and evil goes) because they have already made their choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 11-03-2006 7:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 137 of 234 (361368)
11-04-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:05 AM


iBibleNano writes:
Satan won't reform.
I'm still curious as to how you know so much about Satan's thought processes.
The answer is undefined because it doesn't make any sense. It's not even an issue.
Clearly it is an issue because there's a thread about it and a hundred and thirty-odd posts by people who think it is an issue. If it isn't an issue to you, don't participate in the thread.
And it's a hypothetical question. It doesn't have to "make sense".
Use your imagination. What if?

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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 138 of 234 (361398)
11-04-2006 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Jaderis
09-22-2006 8:19 PM


Re: Origen of Alexandria
Jaderis writes:
Archer Opterix writes:
In Paradise Lost Milton's Satan famously says that it is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. I don't recall the exact context. Had Milton's God just given him a chance to enter heaven?
That's an interesting question and one I am not prepared to answer since I last read Paradise Lost about 12 years ago. Does anyone else know the context?
If I recall, Satan is merely referring to his old job as God's flunky, and not suggesting that God offered him anything after his fall.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 139 of 234 (361414)
11-04-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:05 AM


Welcome to EvC, iBibleNano.
1. Satan won't reform.
How do you know the limits on a supernatural being's choices?
2. Jesus didn't die for satan.
How do you know the limits of God's mercy?
3. Angels don't have free will anymore (as far as good and evil goes) because they have already made their choice.
How do you know the limits on a supernatural being's choices?
Bottom line: How do you know?
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 234 (447593)
01-10-2008 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
08-18-2006 5:02 PM


Angelic Reformation
Archer writes:
Imagine that Satan has a change of heart and becomes the most holy, angelic, benevolent spirit there is. Instead of putting evil thoughts into people's heads, he starts putting holy thoughts into them. What now?
Well, if Satan was putting Holy thoughts in peoples heads, he still would be competing with the Boss.
Either that or he would be part of the Angels Local #777.

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 141 of 234 (447606)
01-10-2008 3:01 AM


Long live Satan
God and Satan are just the polarities within which to choose how to live our lives. We have thoughts from both extremities and without one, the other could not exist. It would completely change life for humanity.
The power of God and Satan is divided up by us, not by them. I hope Satan never goes away but that we make more informed decisions based on greater understanding.
Satan is not to be hated. Satan is to be accepted, heard and seen by all. Why be afraid when all he does is make suggestions to each of us? It's more reasonable to be afraid of a god who has such high expectations of us, OR have I gotten them mixed up?

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 01-24-2008 4:48 AM pelican has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 234 (450816)
01-24-2008 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by pelican
01-10-2008 3:01 AM


Dualism
Have you ever heard of the belief known as Dualism? The Catholic Encyclopedia describes the definitions which distinguish dualism from Christianity.
Catholic Encyclopedia writes:
Dualism(From Latin duo, two)--First, the name has been used to denote the religious or theological system which would explain the universe as the outcome of two eternally opposed and coexisting principles, conceived as good and evil, light and darkness, or some other form of conflicting powers. We find this theory widely prevalent in the East, and especially in Persia, for several centuries before the Christian Era.
Then, when the Christian philosophies were established, we had:
Catholic Encyclopedia writes:
Christianity rejected all forms of a dual origin of the world which erected matter, or evil, or any other principle into a second eternal being coexistent with God, and it taught the monistic origin of the universe from one, infinite, self-existing spiritual Being who freely created all things.
Personally,while I see a world of good and evil, I personally ascribe to the belief that God is sovereign and is good. Thus, Good trumps Evil. (In my Belief)

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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 Message 141 by pelican, posted 01-10-2008 3:01 AM pelican has replied

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pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 143 of 234 (451592)
01-28-2008 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
01-24-2008 4:48 AM


Re: Dualism
Personally,while I see a world of good and evil, I personally ascribe to the belief that God is sovereign and is good. Thus, Good trumps Evil. (In my Belief)
You certainly know your bible(s). I am still confused though. If you ascribe good to God, who do you ascribe evil to?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 234 (667647)
07-10-2012 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
08-31-2006 12:40 PM


Reformation
Ringo writes:
Even if "a satan" doesn't exist, wouldn't the characteristics still exist?
Thus, it is not a matter of asking "what if Satan reformed"....as it is asking whether we ourselves will reform and quit trying to figure the universe out for ourselves while paying no homage to a Supreme Being.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 234 (667755)
07-11-2012 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
09-18-2006 2:23 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Ringo,to i-Biblenano writes:
I'm still curious as to how you know so much about Satan's thought processes.
We really dont know for sure, but base much of our speculation on scripture.
Scripture refers to Satan as "the lawless one" and says that there is no truth in him.
Ringo writes:
Use your imagination. What if?
And thats what I like about philosophy and speculation....it is creative or imaginative thinking unhindered by dogmatic theology.
I dont think that humans are capable of being as good as Jesus, since Jesus knew no sin, whereas we do. I also dont think that we can be as bad as satan, since we are capable of telling the truth.
Ringo writes:
On a more serious note, the specific questions asked in the OP are:
Would God forgive?
Would evil disappear?
How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing?
How would you get the memo?
God may forgive satan, but i dont see satan changing his stripes. If he did, there is hope for all of us, but without Gods help.
Evil would disappear, IMHO
Discernment comes through discipline, prayer, and fasting.
I trust that God would find a way for the memo to be delivered.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-18-2006 2:23 AM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 234 (667808)
07-12-2012 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
07-11-2012 8:45 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Phat writes:
I also dont think that we can be as bad as satan, since we are capable of telling the truth.
"No truth in him" suggests that he doesn't tell the truth, not that he's incapable. The stereotypical Satan chooses to lie for his own purposes, just iike we do.
Pat writes:
God may forgive satan, but i dont see satan changing his stripes. If he did, there is hope for all of us, but without Gods help.
If the prison doors were opened and the captives set free, it would be hard to sell Get-out-of-jail-free cards, wouldnt it? Satan seems to be a pretty useful asset for organized religion.
From God's viewpoint, I think Satan would be more useful as the ultimate reformed sinner.
Edited by ringo, : Splling.

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 147 of 234 (667879)
07-13-2012 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
07-12-2012 12:39 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
From God's viewpoint, I think Satan would be more useful as the ultimate reformed sinner.
Yea but wouldn't it f$%k up his grand master plan of the battle at Armageddon and the whole coming of the kingdom of god and imprisonment of Satan. Do you know how many innocent babies died when i was writing this message so gods mestirius ways and his grandmaster plan would work?

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 234 (667880)
07-13-2012 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by frako
07-13-2012 3:59 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Even if He accepts Satans apology, He still has to deal with all of the unbelievers who assume they need no God and who think that human intellect is destined to be the penultimate object of worship.
Then again, maybe God will simply zap Himself out of existence and let us try and run the universe from our dust speck.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 149 of 234 (667897)
07-13-2012 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
07-13-2012 4:17 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Lucifer being a angel exist in a state of full knowledge. Time as we know it is linear, but for God and Angels it is simply a state of being.
Lucifer being one of the Arch Angels was condemned when his choice to rebel against God the Father was made. Hell according to some Catholic teachings is a state of being apart from God. So in that sense one can be in Hell as long as one is separated from God.
It is one goal of all Christians to be in God's grace, to experience the beatific vision. Or as other religions call it obtain enlightenment.
This is of course dogma and alternate viewpoints of Catholic teachings.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 150 of 234 (667900)
07-13-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
07-13-2012 4:17 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Phat writes:
Even if He accepts Satans apology, He still has to deal with all of the unbelievers who assume they need no God and who think that human intellect is destined to be the penultimate object of worship.
(I think you mean "ultimate" there. "Penultimate" means "second last".)
Why would God "have" to deal with people who tried to go without Him?
Phat writes:
Then again, maybe God will simply zap Himself out of existence and let us try and run the universe from our dust speck.
If He did that, how would you know?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 07-13-2012 4:17 AM Phat has replied

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