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Author | Topic: Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So you said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort. Specifically you said :
You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort. Then you went on to say:
Yes, but that in no ways implies that our will power is ever sufficient to change that which we cannot change. We can exert however much we like , with enough effort, but it is within the restrictions of choice. Is that correct? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Legend Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
iBibleNano writes: It's not God's fault you are going to hell. It's your own damn fault. Think about it, you can drop on your knees right now and pleed for forgiveness of your sins while accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal lord and savior. You could have done that at anytime in your life, and you can do it now. But I doubt you will do it in the future. So you better make up your mind. Oh that's right. Your mind is already made up. I don't think the holy spirit is working on your heart anymore. that doesn't answer what I asked you. I asked you :
quote: well...? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5222 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBiblenano,
So whether God is inside or outside of time, it is still logically valid to state that God has forknowledge of our choice which are made of free will.
No it isn't. This is why you have to retreat & say god exists out side of time. I'll leave you at the same point I left iano, being reduced to ad hoc fallacies to explain why god is outside of reason & logic. As the lone ranger says, "my work here is done". Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that. You speak here with an air of authority. So do you have Biblical references substantiating this claim? Otherwise I don't think it is cool to make claims what God “wants us” or does not want us to do. I would recommend you preface such comments with "I think", "I believe" or "maybe" - otherwise it smacks of arrogance and you will get a strong response. From reading the various exchanges to your claims I would suggest you spend a little more time thinking these claims thru.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
May I ask what is the motive behind this approach ? Why God still creates those of us who will suffer the consequences? To demonstrate to them that he is God regardless of what fallacies they held to be true throughout their lifetime.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
No it isn't. This is why you have to retreat & say god exists out side of time. I'll leave you at the same point I left iano, being reduced to ad hoc fallacies to explain why god is outside of reason & logic. First of all, I never retreated. I always held the view point that God was outside of time. You were arguing that forknowledge equaled predestination, and I saw a flaw in your reasoning, so I pointed it out. Later on, I showed you that it didn't matter because God was outside of time anyway. Seccond of all, God is not outside of logic or reason. The problem is our finite minds are not capable of the reasoning required to understand such a God as the one that exists. However, we most certianly can demonstrate with logic that such a God is possible.
As the lone ranger says, "my work here is done". Mark Your work is no where near done because you haven't demonstrated that forknowledge and predestination are connected. Plus, iano and I have proposed that God is outside of time anyway. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Is that correct? I kindly request that you allow me to revise my first statement. I made a simple error which needs to be fixed. I said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort. What I meant to say was:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert. Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So now you are revising what you said.
So you are now saying:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert. Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing. Is that correct? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5222 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBibleNano,
Your work is no where near done because you haven't demonstrated that forknowledge and predestination are connected. Yes I did, see the post where I removed predestination from the syllogism to counter your attempt to define the problem away.
Plus, iano and I have proposed that God is outside of time anyway. Ad hoc. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Is that correct? Yes. As you can see, the revised version is immune to the following arguments. 1. We can become like God.2. We can achieve whatever we want. 3. We can change our whole course in life in an instant. Now I will provide a commentary to my revised version.
Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. So will power is defined as how much mental force we exert into making a choice. Duh! So whatever capacity you have to chose, that's what limits your ability to do something. Obviouslly if you have no limbs, that limits your choices.
You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
This limits what we can do, since it's based on our limited effort. A human can only exert so much effort.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. This also puts a limit on what we can do. It depends on what choices we make that affect the world. Obviouslly humans don't always make the right choices. Plus, as I have stated before, our choices are limited by our circumstances.
Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing. Duh!
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You agree that you said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert. Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing. I just want to make sure that is what you said. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Yes I did, see the post where I removed predestination from the syllogism to counter your attempt to define the problem away. You'll have to give me a link because I can't find it.
Ad hoc. Well, I don't know what that means.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 275 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
I just want to make sure that is what you said. That IS what I said, BUT I have provided a commentary so that it will be interpreted correctly. Obviouslly people interpret the scriptures in thousands of different ways. The same can be said about what I have written. So I have explained what it is that I meant.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
I'll ask again: if God already knows who is damned, what is the role of the Holy Spirit?
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No, your explanation was nonsense and circular. However we will walk through what you actually said.
Are you ready to do so? Just to be sure, you said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert. Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing. Is that correct? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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