Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 181 of 354 (362225)
11-06-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by jar
11-06-2006 7:20 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Are you ready to do so?
Fine. Go ahead. Ugh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:24 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 182 of 354 (362226)
11-06-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
11-06-2006 7:18 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
I'll ask again: if God already knows who is damned, what is the role of the Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit's job is to draw people to Christ. Without the holy spirit, there would be a dramatic difference in the number of people saved. As a matter of fact, nobody could be saved without the holy spirit.
1. The holy spirit draws a person to God throughout their life time.
2. The person accepts Jesus into their life.
3. The holy spirit enters into their soul.
That is the job of the holy spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 7:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 7:31 PM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 183 of 354 (362227)
11-06-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:21 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
So you said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
You agree that:
Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Is that true?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:21 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:32 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 184 of 354 (362229)
11-06-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:24 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
iBibleNano writes:
The Holy Spirit's job is to draw people to Christ.
But if God already knows who is saved and who is not, there is no "drawing people to Christ". That's one of those decisions that's outside our capabilities, according to you.
How can we decide to accept Christ if God already knows we're not going to? What can the Holy Spirit do to "undo" what God already knows?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:24 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:35 PM ringo has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 185 of 354 (362230)
11-06-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by jar
11-06-2006 7:24 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Is that true?
I assume you are going to argue the position that the statement you are refering to implies that we have no free will, which is nonsense. What the statement implies is that the choices we make are never sufficent to overule God. Another words, we have the free will to make any choice that is within our capacity, but no matter what choices we make, we will never overule God.
Let's take Guido's chess anology for instance. The player has the free will to move the pieces wherever he wishes, but no matter what, his moves are insufficient to beat the grand master chess player.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:38 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 186 of 354 (362231)
11-06-2006 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
11-06-2006 7:31 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
But if God already knows who is saved and who is not, there is no "drawing people to Christ". That's one of those decisions that's outside our capabilities, according to you.
How can we decide to accept Christ if God already knows we're not going to? What can the Holy Spirit do to "undo" what God already knows?
If there was no Holy Spirit, then what God knows would change, because there would be no initial invitation to accept Christ, therefore no acceptance of Christ. So you see, the Holy Spirit is neccessary in order for someone to be saved regardless of God's forknowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 7:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 7:46 PM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 187 of 354 (362232)
11-06-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:32 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Let's just take it one step at a time.
You said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
You agree that:
Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Is that true?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:32 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:41 PM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 188 of 354 (362234)
11-06-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
11-06-2006 7:38 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Is that true?
I've already answered your question. I assumed you were going to argue the statement implies we have no free will, so I responded to that argument ahead of time.
So YES, that IS what I said. If you are going to argue we have no free will, refer to my other post which answered that fallacy already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:50 PM Christian7 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 189 of 354 (362237)
11-06-2006 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:35 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
iBibleNano writes:
If there was no Holy Spirit, then what God knows would change, because there would be no initial invitation to accept Christ, therefore no acceptance of Christ.
That makes no sense whatsoever. God already knows who is going to accept and who is not. So why would the Holy Spirit bother "inviting" somebody who is never going to accept?
I know I'm never going to walk on the moon. Why would I buy a space suit?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:35 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:53 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 190 of 354 (362238)
11-06-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:41 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Let's just take it one step at a time.
You said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
You agree that:
Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Is that true?
You then replied:
So YES, that IS what I said.
Now let us move one step further. You have agreed that "Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing."
Does God know what we will do?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:41 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:55 PM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 191 of 354 (362239)
11-06-2006 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by ringo
11-06-2006 7:46 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
That makes no sense whatsoever. God already knows who is going to accept and who is not. So why would the Holy Spirit bother "inviting" somebody who is never going to accept?
I know I'm never going to walk on the moon. Why would I buy a space suit?
1. Why do you eat a cake when you already know what it is going to taste like? (Assuming you've eaten one before.)
2. Why do you take a swim when you already know what it is going to feel like? (Assuming you've swam before.)
3. Why do you watch the same episode of a television program when you've already seen it before.
4. Why do you keep asking me the same question when you already know what my answer is going to be?
5. Why do people play chess with their seven year old children when they know they are going to win?
6. Why do I keep debating with you when I already know you are never going to change your mind.
The answer to all these questions is: For the hell of it. Because it's fun. Because it's exciting. Because it gives life a fucking point.
The same is true with God. He does everything to manifest his glory. He does it to demonstrate his awesome power to us, and his awesome mercey.
This question HAS BEEN ANSWERED!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 7:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 8:02 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 192 of 354 (362240)
11-06-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by jar
11-06-2006 7:50 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Now let us move one step further. You have agreed that "Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing."
Does God know what we will do?
Well, of course. And this basically proves nothing. So go ahead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 7:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 8:01 PM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 193 of 354 (362241)
11-06-2006 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:55 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Let's just take it one step at a time.
You said:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into making a choice. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you have the effort to exert.
Through those choices, you can influence the world to achieve your goals. Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
You agree that:
Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing.
Is that true?
You then replied:
So YES, that IS what I said.
Now let us move one step further. You have agreed that "Naturally, we cannot accomplish what God has restricted us from accomplishing."
Does God know what we will do?
So you answered:
Well, of course.
So just to be sure, you agree that
  • God knows what we will do.
  • we can do nothing that God has restricted us from doing.
Did God create all that is, seen and unseen?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:55 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 8:10 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 194 of 354 (362242)
11-06-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:53 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
iBibleNano writes:
He does it to demonstrate his awesome power to us, and his awesome mercey.
The Holy Spirit invites people to accept Christ even though God knows they never will. How does that demonstrate anything, let alone God's power?
If God wanted to demonstrate His power, why wouldn't He save everybody, whether they accept Him or not? If He wanted to demonstrate His mercy, why wouldn't He save everybody, whether they accept Him or not?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 7:53 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 8:07 PM ringo has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 195 of 354 (362243)
11-06-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by ringo
11-06-2006 8:02 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
The Holy Spirit invites people to accept Christ even though God knows they never will. How does that demonstrate anything, let alone God's power?
It demonstrates that God has given them a fair chance. It doesn't matter that God created them knowing they would reject him, because it is still their choice. So it IS fair. Why not just accept him? It's that simple. You don't have the book of life in your hand where your name possibly could have been blotted out. So at anytime you could freely chose to accept him.
If God wanted to demonstrate His power, why wouldn't He save everybody, whether they accept Him or not? If He wanted to demonstrate His mercy, why wouldn't He save everybody, whether they accept Him or not?
Because part of God demonstrating who he is is saying, "You were wrong when you said I didn't exist. You were wrong when you said I didn't create the universe. You were wrong to live in sin without my forgiveness. Now you have what you have chosen."
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 8:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 8:18 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 208 by Legend, posted 11-07-2006 1:09 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024