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Author | Topic: The Fate Of Jesus Followers | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Legend Member (Idle past 5032 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Rob writes:
well, at least you're honest about it. A lot of Christians out there present the 'apostles were martyred for their faith' argument as if it was undisputed fact.
I said: I don't have any reason to doubt that these stories of martyrdom are trueI didn't say that I had proof or solid documentation. I offered a reasonable argument that is accepted within the church, and with admittedly minimal solid documentation. Rob writes:
It's so much easier to just believe. Believing is snug and comfortable. Doubting takes courage and true honesty to oneself.
It's easy to doubt. I doubted for years. Rob writes:
..tsk, tsk...what would baby Jesus think?
When people laughed at me, I secretly wanted to kill them Rob writes:
I may be sinful but I'm not angry and I'm not prejudiced. Sorry to disappoint you.
Open your mind and admit that prejudice blinds you, and that you're a sinful and angry man who wants justice for charlatans Rob writes:
I've got another thread on Christian Pride somewhere, feel free to join in. God has hidden all of reality behind our ability to swallow our pride and ask Him to help. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5874 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
You candidly and forthrightly admit you have no evidence for what you say. Well put! I am always willing to work with such humble and honest seekers as yourself. I should not have said I do not have proof. I should have said, "I do not have the kind of proof that such a powerful and exalted prosecutor as yourself demands." I instead offer you sir, the proof that God Himself finds reasonable in such an audacious search as for truth. One that requires you and I to admit the most obvious fact of all within the depths of our being, and to Himself. That we are not God." Now that I said what I should have (which will make no difference to you) I remind you, that I went on to elaborate on the first hand proof I received for myself. Now, I am a reasonable man, and confess that it is understandable that you would scoff at such unconventional and unscientific reasoning which nakedly attempts to manipulate your conscious, but God is very unconventional. This Something testable for you as well. I see no need for the vitriol. But give me whatever it is you wish. everything is food for me.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5874 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
delete double post mystery glitch!
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry Phat but your post had nothing to do with either Archer or Robs messages. Rob throws in a string of totally off topic sermons into ever single post he makes. He is just babbling.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3623 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Phat writes: Archer, in defense of Rob, he is in a Faith/Belief forum. Your point, Phat, is well taken by me. I should make a habit of browsing EvC by Forums more rather than by All Topics. We still have the matter of the OP. A question was asked that one would expect knowledgable Christians to find juicy and welcome. We are often told all the early disciples died maryrs' deaths. This assertion is often put forward in support of other propositions. I have no problem with it being true, if it is. But how does anyone know? I have yet to see any credible sources cited as evidence. No Scriptures tell them this. People seem to 'know' this happened only because someone in Sunday School told them and they never thought to question it. The philosophy seems to be 'Joe Schmoe said it, I believe it, and that settles it.'
Perhaps the question that we should be asking ourselves is this: Should Church Tradition be regarded as reasonably reliable evidence? If one looks to religious tradition as authoritative and intends to respond to the OP, here are some of the questions I see that come up: -- How far back can this tradition about martyrdom be traced? -- Which church's tradition are we talking about? -- Which church's tradition counts as authoritative? How does one decide this? -- Are church traditions infallible? If God steers their development, why not? If God does not steer their development, on what basis does one trust them? -- How does one decide which traditions one accepts and which traditions one does not? _____ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Concision. Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3623 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
In the search for something substantial to discuss. I did a little Googling. As noted earlier, Josephus provides a source for the martyrdom of James, brother of Jesus, and The Acts of the Apostles describes the martyrdom of Stephen.
The individual fates of the twelve disciples, or of any other witnesses of Jesus' ministry, indeed appears lost to history. Traditional hearsay is all anyone has. For Protestant Christians that tradition was effectively recounted and codified in Fox's Book of Martyrs. (The name of the author is spelled both with and without the 'e'.) This Reformation-era document (ca. 1560) really was an exercise in myth-making. Fox intended to link the fates of John Wycliffe and other Protestant reformers with those of martyrs in Christianity's past. He did an effective job of it, and Protestants have cited his Book of Martyrs ever since. Historical sources? Lacking. Maybe Bartholomew really was beaten and crucified in India as John Fox tells us. Or maybe he went back to his fishing nets after Jesus was arrested and was never heard from again, and subsequent storytellers smoothed over that awkward detail. We'd never know. This academic site provides excellent information on the development of religious beliefs in the Roman Empire: The ORB: Online Reference for Medieval Studies Note especially the discussion in this essay: Bernadette McNary-Zak. 'Early Christian Doctrine on Jesus Christ' An excerpt:
quote: Religious persecutions took place in the Roman Empire. No one disputes this. Administrative dispatches about executions being carried out solely to suppress people's religious beliefs make for depressing reading indeed. Still, Pliny's reference to 'empty pagan temples' makes it clear the Christians causing all the concern were Gentiles. He's not targeting eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry. These were converts. ____ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair. Edited by Archer Opterix, : URL. Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity. Archer All species are transitional.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Archer Opterix writes: Maybe Bartholomew really was beaten and crucified in India as John Fox tells us. It occurs to me that Cook was killed in Hawaii and Magellan in the Philippines - but their deaths were caused by cultural misunderstandings, not by what they stood for. If Bartholomew et al. were killed for using the wrong fork, the it-must-be-true-because-they-died-for-it thesis is not supported. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3623 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Ringo: It occurs to me that Cook was killed in Hawaii and Magellan in the Philippines - but their deaths were caused by cultural misunderstandings, not by what they stood for. If Bartholomew et al. were killed for using the wrong fork, the it-must-be-true-because-they-died-for-it thesis is not supported. Indeed. There is that matter of cause. The Jewish revolt that led to the destruction of Jerusalem (70 CE) presents an interesting situation. It precipitated an empire-wide persecution of Jews. Disciples of Jesus still living at this time faced a real possibility of martyrdom--not for their Christianity, but for their Judaism. ___ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Brev. Edited by Archer Opterix, : concision. Archer All species are transitional.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5874 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
This whole issue of the evidence of the fate of the early church leaders (apostles in particular) is questionable.
It is admittedly not an argument that proves the point being made in the strict definition of proof that Archer, Jar, and Ringo et al demand.
And to what do we attribute the willingness of countless Christians, who to this very day, lay down their lives peaceably for the Gospel. Perhaps this is a better topic to make the point, and deserves a thread of it's own. Faith and belief please... A copy has been made to the proposed new topics. Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Rob that has NOTHING to do with the thread.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5874 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Rob throws in a string of totally off topic sermons into ever single post he makes. He is just babbling. Now how is this related to the topic? Seems like a cowardly attack more than anything. A blatent attempt to taunt based on opinion and inuendo. Isn't that a violation of EVC moderation guidelines? It is a shame that EVC would allow such a bigot to rule the roost. An obvious conflict of interest. Not that I am suprised. And if this message is off topic, so is the message it is in reply to. I don't suppose Jar will suspend himself? No, only a real prophet would do that! Only the true Christ and those of his Spirit have such courage. So go ahead and enable your rules and punishments. Take vengeance on the rebels who dare to question your authority. I can face the light of day. And the light shines even in the darkness, though the darkness has not understood it! This is a charade if I ever saw one... What is more important...? That the topic be systematically stabilized at the expense of resolution? Or that the topic flow from one topic to the next, in search of an answer to the thread? The topic is important. But only because we are searching for answers. Let's not try to cover them up by abusing the purpose of the law. "God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Rob, you have been asked repeatedly to stay on topic and quit turning every thread into your personal pulpit. You have been asked repeatedly to STOP sending members emails of your sermons and whining.
You are now banned. AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3623 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Alas, babblin'!
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
...but their deaths were caused by cultural misunderstandings, not by what they stood for. Many would say that militant Christianity is a cultural misunderstanding. The militants would declare it a spiritual war. The other guys would consider the militants.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Many would say that militant Christianity is a cultural misunderstanding. What do you mean by "militant" Christianity? Going into all the world to preach the gospel is not inherently "militant", nor does it inherently cause cultural misunderstandings. Your own OP quotes:
... the disciples knew that life without the resurrection is no life at all, so they all gave their lives to the fact that the Savior came back from the dead. My point was that those disciples might have been killed for smiling at another man's wife, or for not taking off their shoes in a temple, or for wearing the wrong gang colours. It might not have had anything to do with Christianity at all, "militant" or otherwise. Why does your source assume that a violent death is related to the victim's beliefs? Maybe a rich white guy will get mugged even if he doesn't believe in the resurrection. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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