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Author Topic:   UCLA student tased multiple times... pointless police violence?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 142 (364644)
11-18-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
11-18-2006 11:04 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
But according to both the witnesses' accounts and the police's, he was leaving the library when he was held back. In this particular case, diplomacy did win.
So, he was leaving, but then they grabbed him to stop him from leaving, then they decided to tase him and repeat 79 times to get up? That doesn't seem to make much sense.
I don't think anyone is here to argue that the kid wasn't annoying and playing the passive agressive game.
If he was playing his little games, then wouldn't that suggest that he had no intention of leaving? Wouldn't that indicate that he just wanted to put on a big show? You saw yourself how many different ways he was asked to leave. He didn't want to. He wanted to play a game.
What people like me don't understand is the use of taser at least 4 times being a necessary thing in this case. While I haven't been tased before, I've been electricuted. It wasn't a pleasant experience. Scratch that. It was a painful experience.
Well, now that you are going into law enforcement, as a prerequisite, you are going to have to get tased and pepper foam several times in your career. The reason why is so that LE officers will understand and be able to empathize with a suspect instead of just going rogue and indiscriminately tasing people. Nobody likes being electrocuted. And often, just the threat of it alone is able to gain the compliance of the offender. The reason they use it, is because they won't like it. Of course they don't like it. That's the whole point. Pain, unfortunately, is a greater motivator for some hard-headed offenders.
Ok, assuming he had enough time to regain his motor control after the first tase but decided to keep lying on the floor. I noticed that the officers were ordering him to get up while tasing him again and again. I thought the whole point of a taser gun is to incapacitate a person, not make his legs more mobile.
It only incapacitates someone while you are employing it. Unless you have a medical condition, there is no reason why you won't be able to regain your motor functions. He had alot of time to decide. His choice was to continue playing the passive aggressive, F-you game. You can gather from his choice of words that he had an aversion towards law enforcement. He didn't have to go that route. And when you get out there, you'll see it first hand.
Excessive force?
I can almost guarantee that, per the law, the officers were justified. I personally would not have employed the taser until much later. But then again, we don't know what transpired beforehand. You can hear him saying, "Get your hands off of me!" and then heard rustling. He might have made an erratic movement or went to strike the officers. I don't know. They also might have been in there 10 minutes trying to get him to leave of his own volition. I don't know for sure. All I know is what I saw and heard.
I also personally would have tried strongarming him to his feet. If all of that failed, I would have threatened him to use my taser or pepper foam. Again, all of that based on the information that I know of.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 11-18-2006 11:04 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 11-19-2006 12:57 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 11-19-2006 2:43 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 142 (364646)
11-18-2006 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
11-18-2006 11:14 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
Well, my question was in reference to the officers' response to the victim's actions. In what way did the victim "provoke" an escalation of response by escalating his actions? His "actions" seemed to consist mostly of lying on the floor.
When you're trying to remove an unauthorized person, surely nothing beyond "come-along techniques" is justifiable. If the officers couldn't handle their subject without the use of "pain compliance", they are - at the very least - incompetent.
Come along techniques don't work on passive aggressive offenders. How do you get someone to move when they refuse? The next step is applying a little pain, like tweaking their wrist or a pressure point to incur some discomfort. Some people have a high pain threshold and can endure that. And since you can't just go and haul off on someone by hitting them, the next step is either pepper foam or a taser. With the assistance of other officers, I personally would have just picked him up carefully and properly and dragged him to the car. And if you see the last part of the clip I provided, that's what they ended up doing. They probably could have avoided tasing him all together, particularly because he was not violent.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 11-18-2006 11:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-18-2006 11:39 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 23 by fallacycop, posted 11-19-2006 12:02 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 18 of 142 (364649)
11-18-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
What exactly did I say that was egregious? The man was warned numerous times. He failed to comply, the police followed through. He had ample time to comply. Would you disagree with that?
I think I made it clear I disagree with that
I personally would not have tased him. I would have used some pain compliance techniques like pressing on the pressure point behind the ear or putting my finger underneath his and applied pressure first. If that still didn't work, then I would threaten to use either pepper foam or a taser.
that would have been abusive too.
Edited by fallacycop, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-18-2006 10:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-18-2006 11:57 PM fallacycop has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 19 of 142 (364650)
11-18-2006 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 11:34 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
I personally would have just picked him up carefully and properly and dragged him to the car.
Exactly. The obvious solution.
And if you see the last part of the clip I provided, that's what they ended up doing.
And incompetence consists in doing the obvious thing last.
They probably could have avoided tasing him all together, particularly because he was not violent.
Bingo. That's what everybody is trying to tell you. And that tasing is completely over the top for somebody whose "crime" is being in the wrong place without ID.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-18-2006 11:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2006 12:05 AM ringo has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 142 (364652)
11-18-2006 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
11-18-2006 11:26 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
It's a library nemesis, a library.
Immaterial. Would it matter more if he was trespassing in a daycare center or any other buisness?
First off it is NOT private property, it is the "University of California Los Angeles". You love bringing up completely off topic comparisons. That might work some places but that dog won't hunt here.
Public places like parks and even sidewalks are still sibject to the exact same laws, are they not? The University of California made those rules for a reason. Its to keep order, cohesion, and safety, like all other laws. If I could just do whatever I wanted on public property I might just be inclined to do that.
It will put someone on site in case ANYTHING threatening were to happen. As long as he is studying and not disrupting other people, what is the problem?
The problem is, without an id nobody knows if he's supposed to be there. He might have been a student, he might not have been. I don;t know. But how hard would it have been to have gone and retrieved his id? He seemed bent on drawing his line in the sand. But if you want to jettison this rule, then why not get rid of them all and run amok? Who don't get to pick and choose which laws we want to follow.
quote:
There were three officers present. How many more were really necessary?
If they had to resort to a taser, then obviously not enough.
So lets suppose you bring 30 officers in. Now you tie up 30 officers to watch a man read because he's made it clear that he isn't going to go without throwing his tantrum first. Its impractical. And supposing they did bring in more officers, the next argument would have been how much of an overkill that would have been. You are placing the officers in an indefensible position by not allowing them any viable options to do their job.
quote:
Turn him into student services? And what exactly is that going to accomplish? Revoke his library card? Something tells me that anyone not willing to comply with officers after being tased won't be willing to listen to librarians either.
Get serious. If he is a student then he had EVERY right to be there.
If the rules of that library states that you must have id in order to be in that library, then the school has every right to protect its constituents and its laws. I'm sure at most it was a minor inconvenience for him to go get his id-- this all assuming he was even a student.
quote:
Maybe they did. I'm sure what prompted the camera to come on was after he made a big scene by not leaving after he was talked to. Something tells me they didn't break down the door, rush over to him and start tasing him.
They obviously didn't sit long enough.
How much longer should they babysit a brat by tying themselves up? And what are you going to say to the Chief when he asks why you are sitting there watching a man read? "Sorry, Chief, but he doesn't want to leave, so lets just give this one guy free reign to do whatever the hell the hell he wants." I think that would go over with the boss like a fart in church.
Come on nemesis, it is a library at a publicly funded school, owned by the citizens of California.
And? If it was at the University of Miami, a private college, the rules suddenly get to be enforced? The highway is a public place. The park is a public place. Can I just do whatever I want because taxes payed for the land? Certainly not.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 11-18-2006 11:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 11-18-2006 11:58 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 142 (364653)
11-18-2006 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by fallacycop
11-18-2006 11:37 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
quote:
What exactly did I say that was egregious? The man was warned numerous times. He failed to comply, the police followed through. He had ample time to comply. Would you disagree with that?
I think I made it clear I disagree with that
Not really if you don't offer any solutions.
quote:
I personally would not have tased him. I would have used some pain compliance techniques like pressing on the pressure point behind the ear or putting my finger underneath his and applied pressure first. If that still didn't work, then I would threaten to use either pepper foam or a taser.
that would have been abusive too.
LOL! What isn't abuse then?

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by fallacycop, posted 11-18-2006 11:37 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by fallacycop, posted 11-19-2006 12:07 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 142 (364654)
11-18-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 11:53 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
NJ, there was simply no call for the taser incident. It happened because the rentacops lost control.
They screwed the pooch.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-18-2006 11:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 23 of 142 (364655)
11-19-2006 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 11:34 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
The next step is applying a little pain
Once a person is handcuffed and under control, any form of pain constitutes abuse
They probably could have avoided tasing him all together, particularly because he was not violent.
That`s exactly why what they did was abusive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-18-2006 11:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 24 of 142 (364656)
11-19-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
11-18-2006 7:24 PM


Observations
1. I have little sympathy for someone who yells and screams insanely at a police officer who is attempting to stop them after a complaint. It escalated the situation and I think that, in a potentially dangerous situation as that - tasing might be an option.
2. There was no reason to tase him once he was on the ground, if that is the best defense the police have against limp protesters in America - something is going wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 11-18-2006 7:24 PM Taz has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 142 (364657)
11-19-2006 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
11-18-2006 11:39 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
quote:
I personally would have just picked him up carefully and properly and dragged him to the car.
Exactly. The obvious solution.
So, we're all okay with dragging people out? That's fine with me.
quote:
And if you see the last part of the clip I provided, that's what they ended up doing.
And incompetence consists in doing the obvious thing last.
I wouldn't call it incompetence. Like I said, per the law, I'm confident that they were justified in their actions.
quote:
They probably could have avoided tasing him all together, particularly because he was not violent.
Bingo. That's what everybody is trying to tell you. And that tasing is completely over the top for somebody whose "crime" is being in the wrong place without ID.
The infraction of not having an id card is what precipitated the crime of obstruction. But, yes, I would have just handcuffed him and carried him to the car.
I wouldn't worry though. Because its in California, with any luck, he'll get off and be offered a major book deal over his ordeal, the state will award him punitive damages in the amount of 6 million dollars and all the officers will not only be fired, but also will go to prison for 30 years without the possibility of parole.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-18-2006 11:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 11-19-2006 12:16 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 28 by fallacycop, posted 11-19-2006 12:21 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 29 by jar, posted 11-19-2006 12:42 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 26 of 142 (364658)
11-19-2006 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 11:57 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
LOL! What isn't abuse then?
Dragging him out of there without applying unnescessary pain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-18-2006 11:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 27 of 142 (364659)
11-19-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
11-19-2006 12:05 AM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
So, we're all okay with dragging people out?
Only as a last resort. Since he agreed to leave anyway, even that was unnecessary.
I wouldn't call it incompetence.
If three officers have to tase a prone subject multiple times to "control" him, what would they do in a real security situation?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 28 of 142 (364660)
11-19-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
11-19-2006 12:05 AM


Re: Reviewing the video
The infraction of not having an id card is what precipitated the crime of obstruction. But, yes, I would have just handcuffed him and carried him to the car.
Didn`t you mention something about applying presure to some painfull spots?
I wouldn't worry though. Because its in California, with any luck, he'll get off and be offered a major book deal over his ordeal, the state will award him punitive damages in the amount of 6 million dollars and all the officers will not only be fired, but also will go to prison for 30 years without the possibility of parole.
Good (30 days of prison should be enought IMO)
Edited by fallacycop, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2006 12:05 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 142 (364662)
11-19-2006 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
11-19-2006 12:05 AM


Re: Reviewing the video
I wouldn't worry though. Because its in California, with any luck, he'll get off and be offered a major book deal over his ordeal, the state will award him punitive damages in the amount of 6 million dollars and all the officers will not only be fired, but also will go to prison for 30 years without the possibility of parole.
Well most of that sounds reasonable.
He should get some punitive damages. Likely not 6 million, but something.
It's unlikely he will get a book deal, but if offered, so what.
The officers certainly need training. Not sure if they should be fired. Their supervisors though definitely need at the very least a hard dope slap and likely should be fired.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2006 12:05 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 142 (364663)
11-19-2006 12:51 AM


Gaining Compliance
This is the most comprehensive training manual that I could find on the web. I've just made a cursory view and from what I can gather, this is a very good manual and is very detailed in how every LE officer should appropriately respond to certain instances.

Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by fallacycop, posted 11-19-2006 1:15 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 39 by jar, posted 11-19-2006 10:44 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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