Peanut Gallery for Brian and Buz's Exodus debate

You and Brian are in the Great Debate. See if you can present the best case for your position there.This is a thread where other folk can discuss things THEY consider good support for their position.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You didn't (abe:address) my (abe:implied) question. When did EvC GD/peanut gallery policy change? Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

When was there a policy?Buz there is no such policy. Never has been. It has always been something decided on a thread by thread basis.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

OK Jar. Maybe it was a missconception on my part. I hadn't noticed parallel threads on same topic before, but that's not saying it didn't happen. At any rate I'm not into having folks make a fool out of me in parallel thread on stuff I'm not covering at the time I'm debating the same topic addressing other material applical to the debate.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

My maths hasn't had a good work out lately but using this equation:(3,000,000 / 70)^1/430 = absolute growth rateFrom that I get about 1.025 * per year. That's a growth rate of 2.5% a year. Its very high, but not impossibly high. It would put it on about level with modern day Qatar and way behind Liberia on 4.9%Naturally, it isn't realistic to compare modern day countries with slave races of bronze aged empires...but I don't think it is as impossible as the Sinai desert sustaining 3,000,000 people or realistically moving that amount of people in the first place.

Brian if they didn’t go in a straight line that would mean that the whole column is moving, if you took yarn and stretched it out from one end of your table to the other that would reach the end right? ok well take that same yarn and zigzag it a few times and it would end way before you reach the end of the table. That’s what happened.Sinse they were punished, maybe God blinded them so they actually went in circles and that’s why it took so long to get there! How is there no sign of them staying in Kadesh-Barnea?Its possible that the 3 million people did make it out, why is that an impossibility? Like I said they could wander around and wind about in curves and eventually reach the red sea.“What villages were there for them to go to?”
“Sin” “Baal-Zephon” “Etharn” “Pithom” “Pi-Beseth” “On” “Succoth” etc.“The Sinai desert could not sustain a group of 3 million, there simply isn't enough food or water.”That’s why before they reached the mountain they received food. And before mount Sinai there were neighboring villages, how would they survive without food?“The enslavement and Exodus simply did not happen. It is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.”It is! Because then we cannot trust what Moses says, and this what Genesis says as well! Because if he made up the enslavement then he probably screwed up Genesis when he edited it.

Moses didn't write Exodus (or Genesis). There are too many anachronisms, too much historical data missing and even one episode that seems to have been haphazardly inserted into Exodus - it certainly doesn't make much sense where it is.I'd also add that the proposed identification of the Israelites with the Hyksos also denies the enslavement. At the moment Buz is actually agreeign with Brian against the Bible on that point ! (I don't think that Buz means to - but that just makes his position even worse).So it certainly isn't a case of trusting Moses - it's a case of trusting an author writing - probably - hundreds of years after the supposed time of the events. An author who apparently didn't know enough to give a clear picture of when those events happened.

Hi, Due to all available archaeological, anthropological and historical information.The time and place that the Exodus was said to have occurred in makes it impossible to acheive and sustain the required population growth for the 430 years that the Hebrews were said to have been in Egypt.Population growth rates from ancient times are calculated from the remians of cities, villages, and other settlements, plus the extension of cultivated land. ( 1997. Livi-Bacci, M, A concise history of world population, Cambridge, MA : Blackwell, p.30) We also know from archaeological information that the area was well known for its frequent famines, plagues, and poor living conditions. Also, given that the Hebrews were said to be slaves, they would hardly have a higher population growth rate than their masters.At the time of the Exodus, by biblical chronology c. 1446 BCE, if the Hebrews had reached such numbers then no wonder the pharaoh was worried as he had an army of, at most, 20 000 men (1958 Mendenhall, G The Census Lists of Numbers 1 and 26 JBL 77 pp 64-65). The figures suggested by the Bible are ludicrous at face value, we really need to reinterpret what 'eleph was supposed to mean in the population context. If it means 'family' or 'tent', then it is at least plausible, whereas the 3 million figure is laughable.Brian.

Thus, ladies and gentlemen, we leave the realms of historical research and enter the world of fantasy.Brian.

Sorry but marching columns, particularly migrating families, follow the terrain. If you put them in a zigzag formation it helps nothing and also makes it trek go even slower since forward motion is decreases by every switchback. Sorry but just making stuff up doesn't help. This is the major problem with believing that the Exodus happened as described in the Bible. At every point those who believe have to just make up some story. While most anything is possible (I once made a worm stand on end to win a bet) there is no evidence that there were even Hebrews in Egypt at the time and the logistics of the Bible Fable are near impossible.As to the rest of your message it is impossible to tell which are your statements and which are responses. That's okay, when you are posting a message, on the left you will see help with dBCodes and it will show you how to quote other messages or you can use peek to see how this message was made.. The above is likely your response so I will try to answer that.
Moses didn't write the Book of Moses. He did not write Genesis. Genesis (particularly the creation myths in it) is not literally true.But there is also so much more evidence that the Exodus story is Myth and Fable. It is a classic example of the storyteller building in cliff hangers to continue the story to the next day. It could well have been written by Mack Sennett.If you would like, since this is a Peanut Gallery thread we can look at the features of the story that show it is fable.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There is no other way to describe the only response possible from those defending Biblical stories. They are scared absolutely schitless to consider something is amiss in thier good book.Once they agree something is wrong, the whole thing comes crashing down around them. The dyke is leaking in every joint and they are running out of fingers.Want a reality check? Go to any Christian fundamentalist church. It will scare the crap out of you. You'll reach for a weapon and you won't have one. It would make your day to stand up and say, "What in the hell are you people thinking? Are you brain dead?" Which is a more telling question than you think. They are not thinking. Why not is a mystery to me.

I've been to a lot of fundamentalist churches and I'm just as fearless as ever. I keep my deadliest weapon under my hat. No mystery at all to me. Memorizing answers is easier than figuring them out for yourself.That's probably why a lot of people don't bother to think about fundyism.

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you know, i think i have to talk to my pastor about this one!

I suggest that you ask your pastor when Exodus happened (to identify the Pharoahs involved). And to explain the references to the Israelites building the city of Raameses (Exodus 1:11) and the reference to the Philistines in Exodus 13:17

I'm sure that your pastor is a good man, but he has made a career out of avoiding the obvious conclusions one must reach if they were allowed to actually think. And he, and others in his occupation, have been quite successful over the years of convincing others to "have faith and do not think about what I'm telling you". You can talk with him forever but the response will always be "goddidit" because that's the only response possible when he cannot admit there is something incredibly wrong with Biblical versions.Once he comes to grips with facts and fiction, he has to get a real job.Now that would be his ultimate reality check.