castor oil packs-real treatment or quackery?

Holiday and watching grandson all week has prevented me from having the time to address this accurately. I did dig up my books and hopefully can give you some info to work with.Hopefully I can get to it in a few days. Just wanted you to know I haven't forgotten.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Ok I got my books out so I can say things correctly, hopefully. I notice that most of what anyone has found on the internet pretty much says that Castor Oil Packs have not been researched enough to know exactly how they work. So what I am presenting is according to what I have read from various sources.My use of the pack is two-fold since I also have gallstones besides heading into menopause.As far as estrogen is concerned. From the book: Creating and Maintaining Balance, A Woman's Guide to Safe, Natural Hormone Health, by Holly Lucille, ND, RN and forward by Jacob Teitelbaum, MD. Unopposed estrogen appears to be the greatest risk factor for developing Endometrial CancerFrom the book: No More HRT, Menopause, Treat the Cause; by Dr. Karen Jensen, ND & Lorna R. Vanderhaeghe, BSc. Looking at the article on Edgar Cayce and other sites the difference between the oral Castor Oil and the Pack seems to be that the pack supposedly affects the lymphatic system.The oral use of Castor Oil doesn't seem to deal with the lymphatic system. I can't find that link that was in the other thread on the test for how the castor oil moves through the body, but maybe the intestines don't absorb the oil to affect the lumphatic system.The pack seems to have gentler affect than the oral intake. My ND doesn't want me to take castor oil orally because it would stimulate the gallbladder to harshly. We don't want all the gallstones rushing to the exit.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The references for that chapter that seem to pertain to those statements are:Edelson, R.L., and Fink, J.M., "The Immunologic Function of Skin," Scientific American, 1985, 252(6): 46-53.Gaginella, T.S., and Phillips, S.F., "Ricinoleic acid: Current view on an acient oil," Digestive Diseases, 1975, 20(12): 1171-7.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Meaning they didn't quote the reference, so there isn't a number pointing to which reference gave them that idea.I reasoned that those two were more likely to be the source for the castor oil pack info.The castor oil comments are a very small portion of the chapter.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I don't have the answers, I just gave Schraf what I've found in books to help explain what the packs supposedly do.And as I said in Message 7: I notice that most of what anyone has found on the internet pretty much says that Castor Oil Packs have not been researched enough to know exactly how they work. So what I am presenting is according to what I have read from various sources.I haven't found anything yet that says they are harmful either.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Just a quick question. You say you are heading into menopause, which results from a decrease in oestrogen, as the ovaries cease producing the hormone. Why then does your naturopath think you have an excess of oestrogen i.e. what symptoms are they basing this diagnosis on?

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My ND did not diagnose excess estrogen. My GYN diagnosed unopposed estrogen (more estrogen than progesterine) several years ago. No she didn't do any tests, she prescribed progestorine based on my explanation of my symptoms, records I kept on my menstrual cycle and a physical exam.From the book: Could it be Perimenopause? by Steven R. Goldstein, M.D. and Laurie Ashner. The use of castor oil packs to deal with excess estrogen from xenoestrogens was something I gleaned a few years ago from a few books on natural hormone health which were written by NDs. See Message 7. I haven't really made use of it for that reason.My own use of the castor oil packs are related to gallstones and liver support. Estrogen Dominance is a problem for women today. Here is an excerpt from Estrogen Reduction ProtocolFrom what I have read on the packs, detoxification of the liver is the objective. So the question concerning castor oil packs whether for estrogen dominance or gallbladder problems is can the castor oil have any impact on the liver when applied to the skin over the liver?_______Just a note to anyone responding to me, that all things I talk about concerning my own health aren't necessarily happening to me at this moment. Perimenopause is an event that can cover over 10 years. It isn't a steady decline of estrogen, it is more like a sputtering engine or roller coaster.Also note that I'm not trying to prove that castor oil packs work for various ailments, I want to look at the possibility that they work. How might they work. What they are supposedly doing to help the body.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

According to articles on transdermal absorption, a substance needs to have a molecular weight below 500 to be able to penetrate the stratum corneum. Castor Oil has a molecular weight of 298.From this we can extrapolate that the castor oil has the potential to make it through the first barrier of skin.The thickness of the Epidermis varies from 0.12-0.17mm and the Dermis varies from 1-2mm.

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AFAICT, you never had a blood test to check your hormone levels.

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Not much I an do about that since the MDs didn't authorize the test, but made the determination. Plus it was several years ago.

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What I wonder is why you only use "natural" sources, when they have in general shown again and again that they are not bound to evidence as the basis for their claims?

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Not sure what illness you are talking about, but concerning the unopposed estrogen, I didn't. I used the medication the GYN prescribed. It is not something that should be used for a prolonged period of time though.My main purpose in the castor oil packs is the gallstones.As we look at this we might be able to discern whether the castor oil has the potential to "detoxify" or help the body remove xenoestrogen.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Ricinoleic acid, which can be obtained chemically from castor oil but is not present uncombined in it, has that molecular weight. Castor oil itself would have a molecular weight around 930 or so

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Does that preclude any portion of the oil from being absorbed given that the oil is warmed before application and a heating pad is used during the process. The pack is kept on for one hour.Transdermal patches aren't heated.William A McGarey, M.D. tested castor oil packs for 30 years in his practice. "The Oil That Heals, A Physician's Successes With Castor Oil Treatments, by William A. McGarey, M.D." The research carried out at the Meridian Institute found no epoxydicarboxylic acids in the subjects urine as with an oral dosage.This study shows that even small amounts of castor oil taken orally are not excreted. This test doesn't really negate the effectiveness of the castor oil packs. But it shows that it doesn't take much for our bodies to use.The castor oil packs would provide a small amount, but bypass the digestive route.So the question is, what part of the oil is being absorbed and why does it affect the lymphocytes?

McGarey, a medical doctor, has used castor oil as a remedy in his medical practice for over 30 years and has documented the outcomes for various ailments.At this time no one that I know of can say why castor oil works, but apparently it has been used successfully through the ages for various ailments.Do you know why aspirin works? You know what it is supposed to do, but do you know why or how it works for various problems? How does the aspirin know whether it is dealing with a headache or arthritis, pain or inflamation?Just as aspirin doesn't work for all people, castor oil also doesn't work for all people.So stop asking questions there are no answers for.If you want to brainstorm the possibilities then add something constructive to the discussion, otherwise we really don't have anything to discuss.Excerpt from McGarey's book: More recently. Just because we don't know why something works, doesn't mean it doesn't work.Out of curiosity, what have I claimed? I shared a remedy prescribed to me. I haven't claimed that it works, because gallstones take time to reverse. So I don't know yet. It will be a few years before I can say. Even from a medical standpoint it takes 3-4 years to reverse gallstones.In Message 7 I said: So what I am presenting is according to what I have read from various sources.In Message 15 I said: I don't have the answers, I just gave Schraf what I've found in books to help explain what the packs supposedly do.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Castor Oil is considered an emollient which softens or relaxes the skin and I've always understood that heat causes skin pores to open. These are factors that may aid in allowing absorption.To affect the lymphocytes something seems to be getting through.

But even your link on aspirin has "may be due to" and "it appears to". There is also a "mode of action is not known". They know the effects, but they don't know why.

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What bullcrap! That's actually true, I suppose: true in the same sense that it is for every imaginable synthetic or natural compound you could make, from LSD to nerve gas to chamomile oil.

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So it has potential. Doesn't "vibration" increase with heat?While other natural or synthetic compounds may "vibrate", they wouldn't have the same make up.

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Edgar Cayce? Of the "safelands" and all the psychic powers? Puh-LEEEEEZE! PD, you're killing your argument here!

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What is my argument? I thought we were looking at whether castor oil packs do work or if they could work. McGarey is an MD who has used the packs on patients with positive results. There are other MDs who have also prescribed the use of castor oil packs.Whether you like Cayce or not, he popularized the use of castor oil packs. Dr. McGarey studied and tested the concepts found in the Cayce readings. He documented usages that worked. His testing was financed by a grant from the Fetzer Foundation.Supposedly a more recent study was done by Harvey Grady. Carolyn DeMarco, M.D.So the castor oil packs seem to work for various ailments. The how still alludes us.

But the lymphocyte B cells do produce antibodies and the T cells help the B cells.The excerpt stated that there was a concomitant (happening together) increase in the number of total lymphocytes. Tampa Bay Research InstituteThe author of the article didn't seem to be quoting the report, so his general comment about lymphocytes is probably his own thought and not from the report.

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The boost in lymphocytes is the result of clonal proliferation to a specific antigen, and once this antigen is eradicated, the majority of these lymphocyte clones will die

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Since the castor oil packs are used when there is something wrong with the body, there doesn't seem to be a need for a permanent rise in the lymphocytes. Pack application varies from daily to weekly.Any idea how the liver funtions when there is a rise in lymphocytes or if any other part of the body is affected?

It would be an interesting study. Who can we get to finance it? Would you also need to compare with the reaction to just a heting pad?

I investigated the gallbladder flushes, but didn't get a warn and fuzzy feeling about trying them. Too many doubts. That's when I sought out a naturopathic doctor who didn't recommend the flush since I have multiple gallstones. The possibility of them jamming in the opening is the risk.Knowing what I have passed already during a gallstone attack and the pain associated, and that the common bile duct diameter runs between 4-8mm; I don't see how those "large" stones could have passed through the bile duct safely.I would want to know the size of the largest gallstone before I tried such a flush. The MDs didn't give me a measurement. So I'm going for the slow route. I'm not in a rush.

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Since epoxydicarboxylic acid is a the byproduct of castor oil metabolism, this indicates that castor oil is not entering the body transdermally.

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Not necessarily, isn't it possible that it is metabolized differently since it doesn't pass through the stomach?