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Author Topic:   The Unacknowledged Accuracy of Genesis 1
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 61 of 302 (361315)
11-03-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Equinox
10-30-2006 12:31 PM


Re: ahh, the truth , yet again...
From the articles to which you link, regarding
The Light:
quote:
We need not suppose that God spake just as a human being speaks, but the coming forth of light out of thick darkness would have seemed to a spectator as the effect of a divine command ...
The Earth:
quote:
The word "earth" ... must not be understood to mean ... land ... but simply matter in general
The Water:
quote:
... "Waters" means not the oceans and seas as we know them, but the gaseous condition of the matter ...
The Firmament:
quote:
What was it to divide? ... the gaseous matter ... above the heaven ... the "waters" below it include the clouds of our atmosphere as well as the oceans and seas ...
The Luminaries:
quote:
... originally their light was merged in that of the earth's own outer covering of light, ...
Let me see if I've got this straight.
  • God did NOT speak things into existence.
  • Water means Gas (except where it means Water)
  • Firmament separates Water from Gas (or is it Gas from Water?)
  • Earth means Matter in General (except where it means Earth)
  • Earth once produced its own light!?
So: The "Word of God" is inaccurate; he didn't actually say anything during creation but the author's imagination was working overtime.
Does this mean Jesus turned Gas into Wine, and is coming back again to save matter in general?
How could anyone suggest that these guys are trying to rewrite Genesis?

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Equinox, posted 10-30-2006 12:31 PM Equinox has not replied

zaron
Junior Member (Idle past 6293 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 62 of 302 (366088)
11-26-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by iceage
09-24-2006 4:03 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
hmmm... the book of Job seems to be one of the oldest books and it has alot of reference about such things like:
(beginning with God rebuking Job)
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Now gird up your loins like a man, for I will question you; and you teach Me.
Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Declare if you know understanding.
Job 38:16 Have you gone to the springs of the sea; or have you walked in searching of the deep?
Job 38:31 Can you bind the bands of the Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you bring out the constellations in their season; or can you guide the Bear with its sons?
Job 40:15 Now behold Behemoth, which I made along with you; he eats grass like an ox;
Job 40:16 see, now, his strength is in his loins, and his force in the muscles of his belly;
Job 40:17 he hangs his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together;
Job 40:18 his bones are like tubes of bronze; his bones like bars of iron;
Job 40:23 Behold, he is confident, even if Jordan burst forth against his mouth.
Job 40:24 Shall any take him before his eyes, or pierce his nose with snares?
Job 41:1 Can you draw out the leviathan with a hook, or hold down his tongue with a cord?
Job 41:2 Can you put a reed rope into his nose, or pierce his jaw with a thorn?
Job 41:12 I will not keep silent as to his limbs, or the matter of his powers, or the grace of his frame.
Job 41:13 Who can take off the face of his covering; who can come with his double bridle?
Job 41:14 Who can pry open the doors of his face? Terror is all around his teeth.
Job 41:15 The rows of shields are his pride, shut up with a tight seal;
Job 41:16 one is so near to another that no air can come between them;
Job 41:17 they are joined to one another; they clasp each other, so that they cannot be separated.
Job 41:18 His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are as the eyelids of the dawn.
Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning torches; sparks of fire fly out.
Job 41:20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils like a boiling pot fired by reeds.
Job 41:21 His breath kindles coals and the flame goes out from his mouth.
Job 41:22 Strength abides in his neck and terror dances before him.
Job 41:23 The folds of flesh cleave together, cast firm on him; he cannot be moved.
Job 41:24 His heart is cast hard as a stone, even cast hard as a piece of a lower millstone.
Job 41:27 He counts iron as straw, bronze as rotten wood.
Job 41:28 A son of a bow cannot make him flee; slingstones are turned to stubble by him;
Job 41:29 darts are counted as stubble; he laughs at the shaking of a javelin.
Job 41:30 Points of potsherds are under him; he spreads sharp marks on the mire.
Job 41:31 He makes the deep boil like a pot; he makes the sea like a pot of ointment;
Job 41:32 he makes a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be grayheaded.
Job 41:33 There is nothing like him on earth, one made without fear.
Here in Isaih it is mentioned about the earth being in the shape of a circle:
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth3427 upon5921 the circle2329 of the earth,776 and the inhabitants3427 thereof are as grasshoppers;2284 that stretcheth out5186 the heavens8064 as a curtain,1852 and spreadeth them out4969 as a tent168 to dwell in:3427
Job 22:14 Clouds are a covering for Him, and He does not see; and He walks the circuit of the heavens.
So much for there NEVER NOT ONCE being anybody inspired by God concerning what we now know that was once not known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 09-24-2006 4:03 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Chiroptera, posted 11-26-2006 2:37 PM zaron has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 302 (366091)
11-26-2006 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by zaron
11-26-2006 2:28 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
quote:
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth3427 upon5921 the circle2329 of the earth,776 and the inhabitants3427 thereof are as grasshoppers;2284 that stretcheth out5186 the heavens8064 as a curtain,1852 and spreadeth them out4969 as a tent168 to dwell in:3427
Yes, so the earth is a disk; over this disk God erected a material sky. So we have a version of the standard Bronze Age Middle Eastern cosmology where the sky is a physical tent over a flat earth. I'm not sure whether this helps your point, though.
Edited by Chiroptera, : typo

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 2:28 PM zaron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:13 PM Chiroptera has replied

zaron
Junior Member (Idle past 6293 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 64 of 302 (366122)
11-26-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Equinox
10-12-2006 2:05 PM


As many here have pointed out, there are all kinds of problems with saying that Genesis describes events in the correct order.
Without even looking very hard, a bunch of problems come to mind:
This is so obviously true. If forces the beleiver of the Bible to really dig for answers. That is a good thing. If indeed the Bible is true then it should be able to be explained. Somewhere there is something not right.
How about this...
What if there is more in the account of Genesis than meets the eye?
There are other scriptures as well that indicate that something was going on long before those six days of creation.
The very first verse in the Bible, notice how it goes and then notice the very next.
Ever wonder why, that after the very first "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, each verse is then began with ...and? As though breaking in the middle of a sentence, or in the middle of a time.
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."
Period!
then the next sentence begins with "AND?"
"And the earth was without form and void"
Huh?? Did we skip something???
Perhaps He did. Perhaps alot was skipped from in the beginning to the present story being told "..and the earth was without form and void"
Gen 1:2 And the earth776 was1961 without form,8414 and void;922 and darkness2822 was upon5921 the face6440 of the deep.8415 And the Spirit7307 of God430 moved7363 upon5921 the face6440 of the waters.4325
Starting with that first verse we find a mistranslation of the word "was"
The earth "was" without form and void, or empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep.
The word "was" is used. The Hebrew word is "hayah", and it means "became". It was translated "became" 67 times, and "came to pass" 505 times and "come to pass" 131 times.
So that scripture should and could read "The earth "became without form and void"
Now for
The use of the word "and" in Genesis.
It is used 148 times in Gen. chapter 1 through 2 to seperate the 102 recorded independent acts of God. Verse 2 is as independent of verse 1 as to time and subject matter as all other seperate acts of God.
Verse 1 refers to the whole universe being created and inhabited in the dateless past, while verse 2 refers to chaos because of judgment.
Verse 3 through 31 picture the restoration of the earth as before chaos, and its second habitation with present man and the new earth and water creatures brought into being about 6,000 years ago.
These scriptures below show that the Earth was not originally created waste or empty as depicted in verse 2:
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 By which the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Jer 4:22 For my people are foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. (just like in our beginning)
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and lo, there was no man, and all the fowls of the heavens had fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Satan was in the Garden of Eden at the time of Adam and Eve. Satan was once a good angel who had fallen and led 1/3 of the angels to war against God. He was defeated and cast out of heaven. He was guilty of trafficking. Now to convince 1/3 of the angels to rebel with him must have taken time. How long we don't know. He ruled over something and was at one time perfect. Until iniquity was "found" in him.
At the time he shows up in the Garden of Eden, he is ALREADY fallen. It seems he ruled over the Earth as scriptures describe and now that we know the scriptures should read "the earth BECAME void and empty" then it would explain all the fossil records that don't match the time of 6,000 years. Because if Satan ruled over the Earth and led a war to Heaven, what did he rule over? Perhaps over all those "older bones" that we have so much evidence of. During the dinosaur ages perhaps.
Nevertheless Satan has lost the battle and is sore angry and so attempts to gain control with this new race by influencing their fall. Once they fall, he knows that he will reign through death until the crime is paid for by the second Adam, Jesus, who will come and be what the first Adam was meant to be but failed. He will come and restore the breach between God and man with innocent blood. His own blood. Then Satan will lose the power of death over those who partake in the sacrifice provided by God, the spotless lamb. For Adam was perfect and when he fell by choosing to break the one rule God gave him to obey, he broke the chain that bonded us to God. That is why all who are born after him are born in that broken state. Jesus came to bind up that breach. That is why they call him the second Adam.
Spiritually speaking.
Then you go over to Genesis 2:18-19 and find that man was created BEFORE the other animals. Gen 1:27 says man and women were created simultaneously, but Gen 2:18-22 says Man was first, then Animals, then Woman (from a man's rib, no less. Since when does an omnipotent being need genetic material to clone something it made from dirt in the first place?).
Genesis 1:1-21 is a summary of the creation of the heavens and the earth and Genesis 2: is a detailed account of mans creation.
God created the animals and man in the same day on day 6. In the first chapter the animals were mentioned first then man. But both in the same day.
In the detailed account of man in the second chapter you have it being said exactly what God did when He created man and then how He created the animals and brought them to him to be named. I don't see a problem with that because the purpose of mentioning it is to tell the reader that God was looking for a helper for Adam, so its easy to assume that he's stating that the animals he created he brought to Adam to name. It's a frivolous point I think.
That's not to mention a ton of other absurdities, like talking animals or the sky being a "firmament" - (an upside down bowl). Really, thinking that Genesis is anything other than very figurative language is insulting to the Bible and to believing Christians.
Talking animals? You mean the serpent I take it. Parrots can mimic human voices so who is to say that the serpent which was the most sneaky of creatures and who walked upright did not have these abilities before he was cursed? Certainly the ability to be used by Satan to speak. Just like God used the ass to speak to Balaam.
Perhaps some of it is figurative. But to say for sure would be useless. For if you disqualify some of the odd things that seem ridiculous in Genesis, you may as well not tell me that there are 8 legged sea creatures that emit black ink, or birds that imitate the human language or 8 legged insects that produce a substance that if combined is stronger than steel, or humans that can grow an enire other human within themselves starting with an egg and fertilizer, and that the baby feeds off of her body while in and out, and that we have creatures (humans)that can create objects that defy gravity (airplanes). Oh but wait, we can prove that! You see, it is BECAUSE we have proof of THOSE things that seem impossible (to one who had never heard or seen anything like it), along with a gagillion other seemingly impossible things that we witness and partake of in this day and age, that makes those silly things in Genesis seem VERY possible. IMO
Edited by zaron, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Equinox, posted 10-12-2006 2:05 PM Equinox has not replied

zaron
Junior Member (Idle past 6293 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 65 of 302 (366127)
11-26-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Chiroptera
11-26-2006 2:37 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
Yes, so the earth is a disk; over this disk God erected a material sky. So we have a version of the standard Bronze Age Middle Eastern cosmology where the sky is a physical tent over a flat earth. I'm not sure whether this helps your point, though.
the hebrew word for circle here is "khoog" and it means "circle"!!!
why are you turning it into a disc???
Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote box

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Chiroptera, posted 11-26-2006 2:37 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by DrJones*, posted 11-26-2006 6:17 PM zaron has not replied
 Message 67 by anglagard, posted 11-26-2006 6:23 PM zaron has replied
 Message 72 by Chiroptera, posted 11-26-2006 7:28 PM zaron has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 66 of 302 (366129)
11-26-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by zaron
11-26-2006 6:13 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
the hebrew word for circle here is "khoog" and it means "circle"!!!
why are you turning it into a disc???
Cause a disc is a round 2D object, much like a circle.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:13 PM zaron has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 67 of 302 (366130)
11-26-2006 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by zaron
11-26-2006 6:13 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
For anyone interested in accuracy, the Earth is a three-dimensional oblate spheroid, not a two-dimensional circle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:13 PM zaron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:40 PM anglagard has replied

zaron
Junior Member (Idle past 6293 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 68 of 302 (366135)
11-26-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by anglagard
11-26-2006 6:23 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
So are you saying that a sphere does not have the shape of a circle???
The appearance of a sphere is circular. Are you going to pick it and say because the word spere isn't used then they didn't know it wasn't flat?
Where did you get the idea that circle here meant disc?
The definition for circle is: A closed curve every point of which is equally distant from a fixed point within it.
the definition for disc or disk is: something round and flat.
the definition for sphere is: globe; a figure so shaped that every point on its surface is an equal distance from its center.
Just because the word circle is used instead of sphere does not denote the meaning disc.
Why did you add to that meaning of circle that isn't there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by anglagard, posted 11-26-2006 6:23 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by anglagard, posted 11-26-2006 6:47 PM zaron has replied
 Message 70 by DrJones*, posted 11-26-2006 6:49 PM zaron has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 69 of 302 (366136)
11-26-2006 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by zaron
11-26-2006 6:40 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
I didn't say sphere, I said oblate spheroid. Why didn't the Bible say oblate spheroid, or did it have to be dumbed down for the audience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:40 PM zaron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:58 PM anglagard has not replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 70 of 302 (366137)
11-26-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by zaron
11-26-2006 6:40 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
So are you saying that a sphere does not have the shape of a circle???
No a sphere has the shape of a sphere.
Just because the word circle is used instead of sphere does not denote the meaning disc.
Arach is really the guy for this but I believe he's posted that the hebrew had a word for "ball" at the time of the writing of genesis. If they knew that the earth was a sphere why didn't they use the word for ball? why use a word that best describes a 2D object when they have one that is more appropriate. And also as anglagard said, the Earth isn't a sphere it's an oblate spheriod, a little flatter on top and little fatter at the middle than a perfect sphere.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:40 PM zaron has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 11-30-2006 10:24 PM DrJones* has not replied

zaron
Junior Member (Idle past 6293 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 71 of 302 (366140)
11-26-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by anglagard
11-26-2006 6:47 PM


Re: Religion and Truth.
I didn't say sphere, I said oblate spheroid. Why didn't the Bible say oblate spheroid, or did it have to be dumbed down for the audience?
I vote, dumbed down for the audience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by anglagard, posted 11-26-2006 6:47 PM anglagard has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 302 (366146)
11-26-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by zaron
11-26-2006 6:13 PM


pots and kettles, some of which are black
quote:
the hebrew word for circle here is "khoog" and it means "circle"!!!
why are you turning it into a disc???
I dunno. Why are you turning it into a sphere?

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 6:13 PM zaron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 7:52 PM Chiroptera has replied

zaron
Junior Member (Idle past 6293 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 11-23-2006


Message 73 of 302 (366152)
11-26-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Chiroptera
11-26-2006 7:28 PM


Re: pots and kettles, some of which are black
Sphere and circle have more similar meanings concerning the measurements.
I guess we both have an idea and are trying to prove it.
It isn't that bothersome to me.
I guess the reason that I would want to prove the God of the Bible is because of salvation purposes. You may wonder why we fight so hard to unite the Bible with science. It's because real truth agrees with it.
Regardless what science discovers and what the bible reveals or does not.
If you prove to me that the Bible is full of errors, I will concede to that fact. But that will not change the power of God.
He is not bound by mans errors and does not hold us accountable to them unless we have ill purpose in it.
What you need is a genuine miracle.
Proof of His existance and ability through a divine revelation or miracle. Have you prayed for such?
For I'm sure if there were a God as such that I proclaim, you most certainly would want to know Him and serve Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Chiroptera, posted 11-26-2006 7:28 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by sidelined, posted 11-26-2006 7:54 PM zaron has replied
 Message 75 by Chiroptera, posted 11-26-2006 8:13 PM zaron has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 74 of 302 (366153)
11-26-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by zaron
11-26-2006 7:52 PM


Re: pots and kettles, some of which are black
zaron
I guess the reason that I would want to prove the God of the Bible is because of salvation purposes. You may wonder why we fight so hard to unite the Bible with science. It's because real truth agrees with it.
And which real truth, do you assert, agrees with science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 7:52 PM zaron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by zaron, posted 11-27-2006 8:34 AM sidelined has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 302 (366156)
11-26-2006 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by zaron
11-26-2006 7:52 PM


Re: pots and kettles, some of which are black
quote:
If you prove to me that the Bible is full of errors, I will concede to that fact. But that will not change the power of God.
Probably one of the more sensible things anyone has said on this topic.
-
quote:
Proof of His existance and ability through a divine revelation or miracle. Have you prayed for such?
Yes. I used to be a Christian -- born again, in fact. When I began to doubt the inerrancy of the Bible and the existance of God, I prayed that he would guide me. He guided me to atheism. But this is off-topic here.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by zaron, posted 11-26-2006 7:52 PM zaron has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by zaron, posted 11-27-2006 8:14 AM Chiroptera has not replied

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