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Author Topic:   The Exodus: 'A Dead Issue.'
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 24 (36560)
04-09-2003 7:56 AM


This post is in response to an exchange between Paulk and myself in the 'Bible Unearthed' thread. Paulk rightly pointed out that the mention of The Estate of Rameses in Exodus 1.11 could be an anachronism as there are other clear anachronisms in the Bible. But, my argument here is that the Rameses reference was taken as true and accurate because the archaeological data can support a mid 13th century BCE Exodus better than it can support a mid 15th centiry BCE Exodus. My opinion is that neither of the two dates can be suported with any great certainty but that the 13th century BCE date is the more likely.
Despite more than a century and a half of archaeological excavations in the Near East and Palestine in particular, archaeologists have failed to find a single shred of evidence to support the Exodus or the Military Conquest of Palestine.
This has prompted the Syro-Palestinian (his term) archaeologist and biblical scholar William Dever to state that the Exodus is a ‘Dead Issue’. (Dever ‘Qom, Khirbet El’ in The Oxford Encyclopaedia of Archaeology in the Near East, Eric M. Meyers (Editor), American Schools of Oriental Research vol IV (1997) pp 391-2.).
The fact is, it is no longer possible to harmonise the Hebrew Bible with the archaeological data in regard to Exodus event.
Scholars use literary and archaeological sources in an attempt to determine whether the Exodus was a real historical event.
The first thing to establish in investigating the historicity of the Exodus event is to determine when it was said to have happened. The dating of the Exodus in the Hebrew Bible is given in 1 Kings 6:1:
‘In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites had come out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.’
The date of Solomon’s reign is worked out by synchronising the characters mentioned in the Bible that are known from external texts, and working from the genealogies in the Bible, we get the 4th year of Solomon’s reign pinned down to 967 BCE, this obviously puts the Bible’s date of the Exodus at 1447 BCE. It should also be noted here that the Bible is the only place that King Solomon is mentioned, he is not mentioned in any texts anywhere outside the Bible and there hasn’t been a single stone of his ‘Temple’ found anywhere either.
The enslavement, Exodus, and the Military Conquest of Palestine as portrayed in the Bible are described as huge events involving millions of people and many different nations. Scholars now have at their fingertips an abundant amount of literary sources from the very time that the Bible claims that the Exodus, the desert wanderings, and the Conquest of Palestine happened.
Regarding the Literary sources, the Hebrew Bible is the only text that mentions the Enslavement in Egypt, the Israelite Exodus, and the Military Conquest of Palestine. However, the Hebrew Bible is not the sole source we have for reconstructing the background of Syria-Palestine in the early 2nd millennium BCE onwards.
The earliest important texts are the Egyptian Execration texts from c. 1800 BCE, these were written on potsherds and described many different enemies of Egypt, including Palestine and Phoenicia. In these texts we learn all sorts of names of princes and places, and the way the rulers names are formed provides clues about their ethnic origins and the ethnic structure of the population. (M. Noth, The History of Israel, SCM Press, London 1958 p 113) If the Bible’s dating is correct, then 1800 BCE is not much later than the time that Joseph and his amazing technicolour dreamcoat rose from humble beginnings to a highly prominent position in pharaoh’s court.
Then there are the Mari Texts, these are dated to approximately the same time as the Execration Texts or slightly later and consist of an extensive archive of the Kings of Mari. They contain legal economic and political correspondence between Kings of Mari and give a good amount of information about contemporaneous Syria.
Next we have the Amarna Letters that date from the 14th century BCE. The political situation in the Near East during the Late Bronze II period (1400-1200 BCE) has been extremely well described by this collection of tablets. These tablets, written mostly in Akkadian, were found in the ruins of a site built by Akhenaton (Amenophis IV) sometime during the first half of the 14th century BCE. No one knows for sure how many tablets were actually found since it has been suggested that some were subsequently lost or destroyed. Today some 382 tablets are housed in museums, of these known tablets, 350 are letters of correspondence between various kings and vassals to the pharaoh. Although some of these letters are from Near Eastern powers independent of Egypt (Babylonia, Mittani, Alasia (probably Cyprus), Assyria, Arzawa and Hatti (the Hittites), most are from vassal chiefs or rulers living in Syria-Palestine. Some 150 of the letters come from Palestine proper. A small minority of the letters originated in Egypt. (John C. H. Laughlin, Archaeology and the Bible, Routledge, London, 2000, pp84-86)
By Bible chronology, these letters were written just after the Exodus from Egypt and the Military Conquest of Palestine by Joshua and co. But, the Amarna letters are silent regarding anything that the Hebrew Bible claims happened in this era.
The same can be said for the other texts we have, such as the Nuzi tablets and the Ugarit texts. Essentially, the Israelites are unknown to the cultures that have left tens of thousands of records from the very place and time that the Hebrew Bible says all sorts of wonderful epic events happened. None of these texts mention anything at all about Israel, we have no mention of any of the Bible characters, and not one single event in the Bible receives any mention in any extant Near Eastern texts. Therefore, the conclusion is that contemporary literary sources for a mid 15th century BCE Exodus do not support the Hebrew Bible’s dating for the Exodus from Egypt.
The next logical step would be to look for the earliest mention of ‘Israel’ outside of the Bible, and this can be found in the victory stele of pharaoh Merneptah dated to 1207 BCE. But, whether this ‘Israel’ is the Israel of the Hebrew Bible is another matter. The stele includes a list of enemies conquered in Merneptah’s campaign in c.1212 BCE in Palestine, the mention of ‘Israel’ is the only name that is preceded by the Egyptian determinative that represents a people and not a land. The other names on the list were all acknowledge lands, this suggests that the ‘Israel’ mentioned on the stele had not yet entirely settled in Palestine.
If we look solely at the stele then there is absolutely nothing her to suggest that the ‘Israel’ mentioned was ever in Egypt, in fact, attempts by scholars such as F.J. Yurko and Roland de Vaux, have absolutely failed to make the link. Problematic for the Bible guys is that the battle with Merneptah is not mentioned in the Bible.
An honest conclusion is that all that can be said for certain about the Israel in the Merneptah stele is that at the end of the 13th century BCE an Egyptian scribe listed a group of people living in Canaan that were collectively known as ‘Israel’. (J Maxwell Millar and John J Hayes, A History of Ancient Israel and Judah SCM Press, London 1986, p68)
Also, it is reasonable to say that there is no way to link the ‘Israel’ in the stele to any form of religious worship or even if this ‘Israel’ is related to the ‘Israel’ that emerged under David and Solomon some 200 years later (Niels Peter Lemche Hebrew, in The Anchor Bible Dictionary, 1992 vol 3 p95).
If the Merneptah Stele refers to our biblical Israel, it suggests that they were a relatively new group on the Palestinian scene, as they had not yet become a settled nation. If the Exodus had took place in the mid 15th century BCE then surely Israel would have been happily settled in Palestine 250 years or so later, and would certainly have been mentioned in many more external texts.
So, this is really all there is to say about the literary sources. We have a huge amount of texts to illustrate the political and social background of the ancient Near East, yet the Israel of the Bible and the events associated with her entry onto the world stage are totally ignored by recorded history.
So what about the archaeological evidence for a mid 15th century BCE Exodus? Remember that the ‘Conquest’ cannot be separated from the Exodus; it is, apparently, the last of a three part redemptive action by God, Exodus-Wanderings-Conquest (Raymond Dillard & Tremper Longman, An Introduction to the Old Testament, Zondervan, Michigan, 1978). So we have a Military Conquest occurring forty years after the Exodus from Egypt, which should mean that there would be evidence of two things at the end of the 15th century BCE:
First, there should be evidence of widespread conflict and destruction in the cities mentioned in the Bible that were supposedly conquered by Joshua and his armies.
Second, there should be signs of a new population entering the land, signs such as new settlements, new material culture, and a sudden cessation of previous material culture conquered peoples.
There is nothing at all to support any of these two claims at the end of the 15th century BCE, which is where we would expect to find a conquest if the Exodus was in 1447 BCE. Also, there is no archaeological evidence to support any Hebrews being in Egypt in the mid 15th century BCE, no evidence to support the wandering in the desert for forty years and no evidence to support a military conquest of Palestine at that time either.
If there is no evidence of a mid 15th century Exodus, is there any evidence to suggest that the Exodus happened but not when the Bible said it did? Well there is a clue in the Bible that suggests another date for the Exodus. In Exodus 1:11 the mention of the store cities of Pithom and Rameses suggests that the Exodus must have happened some time after the commencement of work on the construction of these cities.
The building of the ‘Estate of Rameses’ cannot have been before 1304 BCE, as no pharaoh before that was ever called Rameses. The date of Rameses II’s reign in the High Chronology is 1304-1238 BCE, Middle 1290-1224 and the Low 1279-1213. (Baruch Halpern The Rise of Ancient Israel Biblical Archaeology Society, Washington 1992 p.90)
There seems to have been some confusion at this site over that dating and naming of the ‘Estate of Rameses’. There is no doubt that the ‘Estate of Rameses’ was named after Pharaoh Rameses II, the inscriptions found at the site itself are evidence of this. I am preparing to start a thread named ‘there’s more evidence for Rameses II than there is for Jesus’; this will contain detailed chronological evidence.
The site of the city of Rameses was built on the location of the Hyksos capital of Avaris, which was rebuilt and made the capital again by Sethos I and Rameses II, and called by the latter the ‘House of Rameses’. The authenticity of the tradition is confirmed by the fact that the capital was referred to as ‘House of Rameses’ only until the 11th century BCE, after which it was called Tanis. (John Bright, A History of Israel SCM Press, London 1972 edition p.119)
It has been suggested that the references to Pithom and Rameses in Exodus 1:11 could be anachronistic, well it definitely is anachronistic. Even if the reference to Rameses is accurate then the mention of Pithom is still anachronistic. According to Exodus 1:11, Pithom should be seen as a city comparable to Rameses. This is historically impossible, as Pithom was only used as the name of a city in the Saite period, i.e. the 7th century BCE onwards. Pithom means ‘the house of Atum (the god)’ and although this was known prior to the Saite period as the name of temples and temple estates belonging to this god, the name was never connected with cities (Niels Peter Lemche, Is It Still Possible to Write a History of Ancient Israel? in V Phillips Long, Israel’s Past in Present Research Eisenbrauns, Indiana, 1999, p.398).
Besides this, archaeologists working at Tell el-Maskhuta in north-eastern Egypt have found clear evidence that this was the ancient city of Pithom and that it was founded by Pharaoh Necho II between 609-606 BCE, a good survey of this can be found in J.S. Holladay’s The Wadi Tunrilat Project. The Excavations of Tell el-Maskhuta. Malibu CA 1982.
The archaeological evidence cannot support the two cities in Exodus 1:11 as ever being occupied, or even existing, at the same time. One part of the reference seems to belong to the 2nd millennium BCE and another to the 1st Millenium BCE. (Millar and Hayes, page 69)
This is by no means the only anachronism in the Bible’s Exodus myth IF the mid 15th century BCE is the date that the Bible demands. In the Book of Numbers chapters 20 & 21, the Exodus group wander around Edom and Moab and these two kingdoms were unknown before the 13th century BCE (Bright, p121).
If we at least take the Rameses reference as being a memory of an authentic historical event, then we can make a far better case for there being a 13th century BCE Exodus. We know from the Bible that the Israelites left Egypt and wandered for forty years in the desert before entering Palestine by means of a military conquest. We also know, from the Merneptah Stele, that there was a group of people in Palestine who are known as ‘Israel’ by the end of the 13th century BCE, and we know that archaeology lends some support to the theory of a 13th century BCE Exodus.
Archaeologists have uncovered evidence of the sudden appearance of hundreds of new settlements in the central hill country of Palestine at the Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age transition. However, there is nothing that has been discovered so far that has identified the new settlers by name. But if we take into account the evidence of the Merneptah Stele, which places an ‘Israel’ in Palestine at the end of the 13th century, and also the biblical narratives that associate the Israelite tribes specifically with the central hill country, it is at least plausible that the Israelites were connected in some way with the sudden appearance of these new settlements.
It should be emphasised that scholars only promote a 13th century BCE date for the Exodus NOT because they have good evidence for it, they only promote it because it is more plausible at that time. The Bible is simply too unreliable to be of much use in reconstructing Israel’s origin.
The Bible itself gives good evidence for rejecting it as a reliable historical source. For example, there is the problem of the amount of people said to be in the Exodus group, which, in my opinion, verges on the absurd. If taken literally, the claim is that a group of 70 people (Exodus 1:5) multiplied into a nation of 2-3 million in around 430 years! We know that this is impossible to achieve in 430 years, it is even more absurd to expect this population growth in four generations (Genesis 15:16). John Bright in his A History of Israel states in a footnote on p.130 that ‘The reader can figure that two and a half million people marching in an old fashioned column of fours would extend for some 350 miles!’ We know that this would stretch all the way across the Sinai Desert and back again, the numbers involved in the Exodus, if the event happened at all, must be smaller. Indeed, the word used for ‘thousand’ (‘elef) can be translated as a tribal subunit, which would drastically reduce the numbers involved (Bright p.130).
A more realistic figure is given by A. Lucas in Palestinian Archaeology Quarterly 1944, pp 164-166, he estimates on the basis of the then (1944) rate of population growth in Egypt that 70 men would produce 10 363 offspring in 430 years. Population growth has only fairly recently began to grow quickly and only as a result of industrialisation, urbanisation and technological advances.
The Bible cannot even agree on how long the stay in Egypt was. The Bible gives conflicting accounts of how long the Israelite enslavement in Egypt was. We have a stay in Egypt of 430 years (Exodus 12:40, &12:41) then we have a round figure of 400 years in Genesis 15:13b and again we have another conflict in Genesis 15:16 that states they were in Egypt for four generations (M. Noth, The History of Israel, SCM Press, London 1958, p114), 75 people multiply to 2 million in four generations is just a little far fetched.
Archaeology also makes a mockery of a lot of a great deal of the Bible, contrary to what some websites promote. Regarding the military conquest, the late Yigael Yadin excavated Hazor and believed that he had found evidence that the Israelites had destroyed the city, which he believed confirmed Joshua 11:10:11
10 At that time Joshua turned back and captured Hazor and put its king to the sword. (Hazor had been the head of all these kingdoms.) 11 Everyone in it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed them, not sparing anything that breathed, and he burned up Hazor itself.
Most archaeologists today date the destruction of Hazor to 1250 BCE, which appears to be a bit early to have involved Joshua (Dever in Shanks p.31). The reason for this is that at the site of Lachish a destruction level was dated to 1220 BCE, this would fit the Joshua account. But recently, scarabs of the later Ramesside pharaohs have been found which means that this particular destruction level has now been dated to 1150 BCE or later. It is impossible that Joshua could have led both these campaigns, which were over 100 years apart; in fact, neither of these destructions can be linked with any confidence to the Israelites (Dever in Shanks p32).
In my opinion, and what my research is beginning to lean toward, is that we are never going to find any evidence for the Exodus, Wanderings or Military conquest in the archaeological sources. What we may be able to do is to locate these events only in literary sources. It is looking increasingly likely that these events, enslavement, exodus, wanderings and conquest, are pure invention. For example, the Joshua narrative advocates the Israelite’s right to the land at a time when their right to that land was disputed. So, both the myth of the promise of the land (Genesis 12:1) and the conquest were simply made up to support the Israelites claim to the right to live in Palestine.
It is an often-quoted old chestnut from apologetic sites that archaeology confirms time and again the events of the Bible. This is basically untrue. Archaeology cannot explicitly tell us anything about any Bible event it can only imply that things were possible, Binford calls this inference justification, we can justify the inference that these events happened by using archaeological data, but you really have trouble proving anything with certainty. For example, you could find dozens of trumpets beside the walls at Jericho, that doesn’t mean that the trumpets had anything to do with the walls tumbling down. (I don’t remember the name of the author of this example)
Because the Bible is a product of faith, its main aim is not to report and record historical facts, this is why the biblical texts cannot be always be harmonised with archaeological remains.
In conclusion then Paul, this is just a very brief outline of some scholars’ opinions regarding the Exodus and other events. This is a massive area of research, and none of the leading scholars support the Bible as being totally accurate, the best they do is promote the Bible as having ‘kernels’ of history within it. Every single book I have read on this subject has massive problems to overcome as soon as the author attempts to harmonise the Bible accounts with the archaeological data.
I would be happy to expand on any of the topics covered here.
Best Wishes
Brian

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by John, posted 04-09-2003 9:54 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 04-09-2003 8:17 PM Brian has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 24 (36573)
04-09-2003 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-09-2003 7:56 AM


Truly excellent post, Brian.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-09-2003 7:56 AM Brian has not replied

  
drummachine
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 24 (36610)
04-09-2003 4:50 PM


I will look into it.

  
Conspirator
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 24 (36627)
04-09-2003 7:45 PM


Wow. That is one long post.

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 24 (36628)
04-09-2003 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-09-2003 7:56 AM


Lets start with a couple of points that probably need to be considered.
Even back near the end of the 19th Century it was realised that the numbers of people in the Exodus were somewhat implausible. Apparently the word translated as "thousand" can also be used to mean "tent" and is used in this form as a count for numbers of people. The numbers, I think are still uncomfortably high but obviously it is far less of a problem and if the conquest account in Joshua was not thoroughly dead already it could possibly be saved by assuming that the Canaanites were weaker than Joshua suggests (which is more in accord with the archaeology anyway)
Secondly, the highland settlements. There is one feature that links the third wave of highand settlement discussed in _The Bible Unearthed_ with Israel. In the third wave - unlike the previous waves or neighbouring cultures - there is no sign of pigs.
On to my view of Exodus.
The current account seems to be based on legends old at the time of writing - I would say redaction, but I beleive that there was considerable editing and that the version we have is in may ways a work of religious and nationalistic (or even racist) propaganda.
One of the more puzzling parts of Exodus is 4:24-6 for which the only plausible explanation I can imagine is that it is an old legend so well known that the writiers could not leave it out. I can see no other reason for including it at all - especially as it makes little sense where it is (why not put it earlier - say around the end of Exodus 2 ?)
We know from the archaeological evidence that there is no sign of an external force invading Canaan at the time which best fits the Exodus. On the other hand the Moses story probably has some basis in historical fact (even if it is obscured by the development of the legend and the purposeful reworking that produced the text that we have). We also know that the Amarna letters show Canaan as a land of petty kings, squabbling among themselves while protesting their loyalty to Egypt and blaming the others. Perhaps the original version referred not to a bondage In Egypt but Egyptian dominance over the region - speculative, to be sure but in accord with the evidence. Perhaps the curent version was reworked during the Babylonian captivity, and reflects that situation or perhaps the fate of Israel inspired it - because I find the evidence of seventh century authorship persuasive, and that demands that the original text preceded the captivity.
And who was the original "Moses" ? It is hard to say, of course, but the story (and name) suggests an Egyptian renegade - perhaps one who joined the Apiru and claimed credit for all the troubles Egypt had in the area. Perhaps - and I speculate again - the stories in Numbers of God killing Israelites who did not recognise Moses' authority reflect the actions of the ruthless original. But then there is no solid bsis for anything more than speculation. Whatever Moses did he became a hero of some sort, then a legend, and lastly the Yahweh cult claimed the legend as their own. Whatever lies beneath that it seems, is lost to use, because archaeology offers nothing from that time - whenever it was - that we can link with the story we have now.

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 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-09-2003 7:56 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 04-12-2003 9:09 AM PaulK has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 6 of 24 (36829)
04-12-2003 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
04-09-2003 8:17 PM


Hi Paul,
Yes the numbers are unusually high and, as you pointed out, it was a fairly long time ago that these numbers were first questioned, at least openly anyway. In fact, the earliest one I could find was in Reimarus’ book ‘Fragment’ published in 1778, there are probably earlier examples but here’s what he says.
‘In reading the history of Moses and the succeeding times, we have already seen that it cost the writer neither intellect, skill, nor trouble to concoct miracles, and that the reader requires still less intellect to believe them. The historian kills all Pharaoh's cattle three times running. Each time not a single beast is left alive, but in his fertile imagination there are always fresh ones ready to be demolished again. Where they all came from is quite immaterial to him. He makes the Israelites take all their cattle away with them, not leaving a single hoof behind, and yet when he wants to perform miracles, they are every moment suffering from hunger, so that meat - must needs rain from heaven. In three hours and on a very dark night he brings three million men with women and babes, aged and sick, lame and blind, tents and furniture, wagons and harnesses, three hundred thousand oxen, six hundred thousand sheep, safe and sound over the bottom of a sea which at the very least must have been a German mile in breadth; a bottom which on account of weed and mud in one place, sand and coral branches in another, rocks here and islets there, is impassable. He does not trouble himself to reflect whether the thing is possible. Enough! He imagines and writes them safe across in a single night-watch!’
(From, Reimarus: Fragments , Ed Charles H Talbert, Translated by Ralph S Fraser, SCM Press Ltd, London 1970)
If the word for thousand is used as ‘tent’ then at least the group’s size is plausible, as for the divine intervention, well that is beyond the historian’s realm of investigation.
Assuming that the ‘Canaanites’ were far weaker than the Joshua accounts claim we then bring into doubt the accuracy of the entire prehistory of Israel. What part of the Bible is then reliable if we know that one account is embellished? This is why I think it is vital to take into account the symbolic aims of the texts as myths that express certain basic truths rather than accurate historical accounts, the Bible itself makes no claims that it was the authors’ intentions to record accurate historical information. I always wonder why someone who has faith in God needs to find empirical evidence anyway, whether they find positive or negative evidence it isnt going to make any difference to their faith.
The third wave that is void of pig bones is interesting yes, but it doesn’t necessarily mean an entirely new population has entered these settlements, it could just be the introduction of a new religious belief, maybe word of YHWH had been brought to these settlements by a small group and quickly gained popularity. All these settlements show a continutation of material culture and the current thinking is that the ‘Israelites’ were an indigenous people. The origns of Yahwism is probably best kept for a separate thread.
There are quite a few examples, apart from 4:24-6, that indicate that the whole of Genesis — II Kings is composite.
Look at Exodus 6.14-30, this is clearly a later addition to the text as it interrupts the narrative continuity between Exodus 6.13 and Exodus 7.1, take 6:14-30 away and the text reads fluently.
It is quite clear that many narratives were once independent and brought together by editors to produce an overall account of history from creation to exile. These independent stories, poems, songs, genealogies, laws etc, have obviously been combined and edited to give a degree of unity and coherence. But, if people are interested enough to look at the Bible critically then many examples of these amalgamations can be found. I am sure that for the maximalist the following examples do not pose any problems, but for critical thinkers they represent some serious issues, as well as apparent contradictions, that call into question the reliability of the Bible text as a historical source.
Here is an example of editing and composition in addition to the one you gave:
Regarding the Exodus one source appears to say that the Israelites escaped from Egypt without Pharaoh knowing about it, and left in a hurry without any preparation
Exodus 12:39;
With the dough they had brought from Egypt, they baked cakes of unleavened bread. The dough was without yeast because they had been driven out of Egypt and did not have time to prepare food for themselves.
And 14:5a:
When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!"
However, another version of these events can be found:
Exodus 11:1-2
(1) Now the LORD had said to Moses, "I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. (2)Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold."
Exodus 12:35-36
(35) The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. (36)The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.
Exodus 13:18b
The Israelites went up out of Egypt armed for battle.
The second version conflicts with the first. In the second the exit from Egypt was premeditated with the Israelites organised as an army and they even had time to acquire some nice goodies from the Egyptians.
Another clue to the composite character of the Bible is the stories of Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 12:10-20 and Genesis 20, did he present Sarah as his wife at different times or are these verses describing the same event? The outcome of both stories is basically the same.
The Isaac and Rebekah perform the same trick in Genesis 26:1-11, these could all be different versions of the same event or perhaps just a common plot of the time that the stories were written.
As well as the obvious editing, there are some examples of explicit impossibilities and contradictions that weaken the credibility of the Bible. For me, there are many many problems with using the Bible as a reliable historical source for Israel’s origin, apart from the lack of archaeological support, the internal inconsistencies are astounding and how any Bible believer can fail to acknowledge that these inconsistencies exist is beyond my comprehension.
For example, if we look at the length of time the Israelites were said to be in Egypt, 430 years, and compare that with certain genealogies given in Genesis and Exodus, then no matter what textual contortions are performed some of this information is simply impossible.
Perhaps the most glaring error is between the 430 years in Egypt and the genealogy in Exodus 6:14-25 that declares there is only four generations from Levi to Moses, even with the dubiously high life spans this genealogy is totally at odds with the 430 years in Egypt. Exodus 7:7 tells us that Moses was 80 years old when he first confronted the Pharaoh and this happened in the final year that the Israelites were enslaved, this means that there are 350 left for the remaining three generations. This is stretching reality a bit to far, maybe we could convince ourselves that three generations are possible if Levi was 40 when he arrived in Egypt and that Levi, Kohath and Amram all became fathers at the age of 130, this might be acceptable to a maximalist but to the historian, these things are simply legends. If the maximalist thinks the 3 X 130 years explains the discrepancy then he will have to find yet another excuse when he reads Genesis 46:11 which includes Kohath among the children who first entered Egypt! This only leaves two generations to span 350 years, utterly impossible.
I think that these few simple examples call the historical reliability of the Bible into question, and if that isn’t enough we also have the added problem of which Bible version to use. Different Bible versions also give conflicting information about certain events and dates, for example the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Septuagint both give the length of stay in Egypt as 215 years. (Jeremy Hughes, Secrets of the Times: Myth and History in Bible Chronology Sheffield Academic Press, Sheffield 1990)
Regarding Moses and the events associated with him, I agree that we have nothing more then speculation to go on, the only information we have about Moses is what the Bible tells us. I had to let out a little laugh when I read John Bright’s ‘A History of Israel’ when he says about Moses ‘The events of exodus and Sinai require a great personality behind them. And a faith as unique as Israel’s demands a founder as surely as does Christianity — or Islam, for that matter. To deny that role to Moses would force us to posit another person of the same name!’
Bright doesn’t even consider the possibility that Moses is a legendary character, if these events did not happen, and they may not have happened in any shape or form, then we are forced to posit a person called Moses, but he is a product of the author’s imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 04-09-2003 8:17 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2003 12:12 PM Brian has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 24 (36832)
04-12-2003 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
04-12-2003 9:09 AM


As I at least hinted at in my post I don't beleive that Israel represented a new population that came from outside Canaan. It is important, however, that the third wave of the hill settlements has evidence conntecting it to the emergence of Israel as a distinct grouping.
I agree with your critiicsms of Bright, and I would argue that the proposal put forward in _The Bible Unearthed_ is rather more plausible. Moses may well be a legend appropriated by the real founders - and it is hardly unknown for religions to claim false histories for themselves

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 Message 6 by Brian, posted 04-12-2003 9:09 AM Brian has replied

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 Message 8 by Brian, posted 04-13-2003 1:46 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 24 (36897)
04-13-2003 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
04-12-2003 12:12 PM


Hi Paul,
Just a note on pig bones that I found by accident, it appears that the lack of pig bones in the third wave of settlement may not be that unique after all.
In her book Rewriting the Bible: How Archaeology is Reshaping the Middle East (Little, Brown and Company, London 2000, p.23) Amy Dockser Marcus writes that Brian Hesse and Paula Wapnish, who are zooarchaeologists based in the Department of Anthropology at the University of Alabama in Birmingham, have spent their careers studying the remains of animal bones at sites around the Middle East.
Finkelstein had written that the ‘pig taboo’ could be the only avenue that can shed any light on the ethnic boundaries of these Early Iron Age settlements but Hesse and Wapnish rejected all the explanations concerning dietary laws and proposed a different approach. They looked beyond ideology and instead tried to identify the many influential forces - including economic, political, and ecological - that might have influenced the use or rejection of pigs.
After studying bone remains at archaeology sites throughout the Middle East, they determined that during the biblical period virtually no one in the region was eating pigs. Also, the refusal to use pigs as sacrifices in official religious rituals hadn't been limited to the Israelites, but was a common feature of religions throughout the Middle East. Hesse and Wapnish developed a set of what they called "pig principles" to try to explain why this might be the case.
Pigs require larger amounts of water than other kinds of livestock, which means that they can be raised only in areas that receive substantial rainfall. Pigs are also quite difficult to herd, requiring that a group who chooses to raise them be willing to give up its nomadic ways and settle down. Changes in a community's agricultural patterns would also affect whether or not pigs were raised. Studies done on pig production in ancient Egypt indicated that when more grain was grown, cattle and goats were raised instead of pigs, because of the specific demands of land use. And in every part of the region, production and consumption of pork were far more typical of lower- or working-class people than of the elite. At urban sites in Mesopotamia, archaeologists had learned that refuse associated with labour gangs was filled with pig bones, but that the garbage of residential sectors from the same periods was not. Searching for a way to feed workers economically, the local administration apparently had served pork.
These various factors had resulted in a significant, long-term, historical decline in the use of the animal. The peak of pig consumption, according to Hesse and Wapnish's study, had been in the prehistoric era. The low point was in the early Iron Age period, from the twelfth to the tenth centuries B.C.E., the time when, according to the Bible, King David and King Solomon reigned. Israelites weren't eating pigs then, Hesse and Wapnish concluded, but neither was anyone else.
It is an interesting piece of information, but one I haven’t studied in great detail yet. I am still working my way through the different theories proposed over the years by biblical archaeologists for Israel’s origin. The pig remains will be something that I have to look at but I don’t envisage having to investigate that particular topic for at least 6 months.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by John, posted 04-13-2003 2:58 PM Brian has replied
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John
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 24 (36904)
04-13-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
04-13-2003 1:46 PM


Another thing about pigs is that pigs eat pretty much what we do, as opposed to cattle and goats, for example, which can eat things we can't-- grass, leaves, etc. Thus pig farming isn't terribly efficient under most circumstances. It doesn't really add much to the food supply.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 04-13-2003 1:46 PM Brian has replied

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 Message 10 by Brian, posted 04-13-2003 3:14 PM John has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 10 of 24 (36907)
04-13-2003 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by John
04-13-2003 2:58 PM


Noted John, many thanks

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lpetrich
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 24 (36914)
04-13-2003 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
04-13-2003 1:46 PM


I wonder what happened to Middle Eastern pig consumption after the Early Iron Age. Did it rise?
Also, the time just before, around 1200 BCE, was a time of big droughts and peoples on the move, two circumstances that would have been bad for raising pigs. So that may have made pigs go out of style for a while.
At that time, the Hittite and the Mycenaean kingdoms were destroyed, though Egypt was more successful in fighting off hordes of invading "Sea Peoples".
[This message has been edited by lpetrich, 04-13-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 04-13-2003 1:46 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 24 (38165)
04-27-2003 7:38 PM


Egyptian population growth.
I managed to find the original article referred to by John Bright in my first post regarding the rapid population growth of the Israelites, rising from 70 to a few million in 430 years.
The article can be found in the Palestine Exploration Quarterly 1944&45 pp.164-168.
Lucas starts the article off by stressing that the number of Israelites involved in the Exodus is very important because this has a direct bearing on the amount of food and water required by the group on their journey. He then gives the standard run down of biblical references that claim there were around 600 000 men of fighting age involved in the Exodus and adds to this women and children to arrive at a total of two million for the entire group.
Lucas then claims that not only is this figure of two million people far too high, but the numbers given in the census list of Num. 1:46 are also ‘very much too high (Lucas p.167).’
Lucas was working with official population figures from Annuaire Statistique, 1937-8 and informs us that between 1907 and 1937 the average annual rate of population increase per 1000 people was 11.69%. When he applied this growth rate to the 70 Israelites over a period of 430 years he arrived at a total population of 10 363 (Lucas, p.137).
Bright gives an explanation that can drastically cut the numbers involved in the Exodus group, he says that the word used for ‘thousand’ (‘elef) can be used to refer to a tribal subunit (Bright, p.130) which would make the figure a bit more realistic.
Lucas gives a better explanation when he reveals:
‘Another suggestion is that made by Flinders Petrie, namely, that the Hebrew word alaf (elef ), which is translated " thousands," should be " families," " tents," or " clans." In this manner of reckoning, the first census would mean 598 families with a total of 5 550 men, and the second census would mean 596 families with a total of 5,730 men. But, since the totals, whatever they are, are stated to represent only men of twenty years old and upward who were able to fight, the Levites being excluded, therefore, with women, girls, boys, children and Levites, the total for the whole of the Israelites would have been many times 5,550 and 5,730, and probably at least about five times as many, which would represent 27 750 and 28,650 respectively, a great reduction on the 603,550 and 601,730, but still far too many (Lucas, p.166).
Lucas also casts serious doubts on the accuracy of the number of men listed in the census of Numbers 1:46 and 26:51.
The population of the whole of the Administrative Division or Province, of Sinai, from the Mediterranean Sea on the north to the apex of the peninsula on the south, was only 15,058 in 1927, and only 29 951 in 1937, and there could not possibly have been either water or food sufficient for the number of Israelites given (Lucas, p167-8).
A final point about the Exodus group is that it also seems highly improbable that only two midwives were required for a group of two million people. It may be argued that the Bible says that the Hebrew women were vigorous and gave birth before the midwives arrived (Ex. 1:19), but this, of course, begs the question of why there were midwives in the first place. It is more likely though that the episode involving the midwives Shiphrah and Puah, was the product of a creative imagination.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 13 of 24 (56030)
09-17-2003 11:09 AM


Hi Jester,
I thought I would post this reply here so maybe you could read through the thread and perhaps comment on some of the observations I have made? With your first hand knowledge of the excavations sites you would be a very welcome addition to the thread.
Before I respond I would like to thank Paul for ‘holding the fort’ and an admirable job too.
Among other sources that carried the news, there is this link. This story is no longer available - Washington Times
This supports your case in which way? All this does really is justify what I said!
Now since I actually live in this country, I get different news and believe it or not different version of the news
Yes, and a different version of reality.
and the brief has already been submitted to the International Court here in the Hague.
You have still to demonstrate this, every link you have provided, including the ones after this post, and the links provided by the kind members of the forum such as Paul do not support your claim. I stand by what I said earlier, there is no law suit by the Egyptian Government.
And the university's dean of law, Nabil Hilmi, did not dream up this up, this is a repeat of the same law suit filed 2000 years ago, Page not found - aish.com.
A story in the Talmud! That must be true then.
But you said it was the Egyptian Government that was bringing the lawsuit and this has still not been shown. Again all your links do is incriminate Hilmi.
Why don’t you actually think about this a bit more critically. If these event happened they would have been more then 3200 years ago, we don’t know the exact date because the Bible contradicts itself over the dating of the Exodus, but can you seriously hope to investigate accurately the events of the long ago with only a biased document as evidence? We know that the Bible is a horrendously inaccurate history book, so I cannot see it being admissible in a court, if it ever comes to that.
This is presented for two reasons, one because you basicly called me a liar or a fool
I never called you either of these, you may be seeing what you want to see, or you may be ill-informed, but that doesn’t make you a liar or a fool. Even when you claimed that I searched a couple of website for arguments when I didn’t, doesn’t make you a liar either, although it should make you a bit more careful in the future.
and two because you made the statment that no one believes this fairy tale any more.
I said that there are no scholars searching for these things anymore, no archaeologist is looking for and Exodus or a military conquest. Since Finkelsteins archaeology of the Israelite settlement was released almost every archaeologist/bible scholar accepts that the ‘Israelites’ were an indigenous population that emerged from within Canaan. I posted on another thread that James Weinstein wrote that anyone looking at the Palestinian archaeological data today would conclude that whatever the origin of the Israelites, it was not Egypt. The ONLY reason that people look for Egyptian evidence is because the Bible has little stories in it that people cannot accept are not true.
There are, of course, people who believe in these tales, but they are not well informed, they are not involved in the debate, and even if they were, they would keep denying the obvious. I have even seen students withdrawing from courses because they cannot accept that there are errors between the Bible and the archaeological data! If you want the truth about this, then go study it for yourself, and try using academic journals and archaeological surveys, the local tabloid newspaper isn’t always the best source.
And my point is that you do not have all the facts or data in front of you.
However, I do have a tremendous amount of facts and data ‘in front of me’, and they all come to the same conclusion, there was no Exodus as described in the Hebrew Bible.
You are not ignorant nor stupid, you are just isolated from different news sources
,
Thanks for the compliment. Don’t take this the wrong way but you seem to be isolated from the real academic data in regard to the ‘origins of ancient Israel’ debate.
and yes, news sources and the "news" they present differs all over the world, and what you consider a fairy tale is an actual event, recognized by hundreds of thousands of educated people.
Why not forget the ‘news’, the ‘news’ reports all kinds of garbage, the ‘nun in the bun’ likeness of Mother Teresa was in the ‘news’. Forget the popular press, read the materials from the scholars involved in the debate, I can provide a good reading list if you require it.
Where you might not hear of a study or an event back in America,
I’m in Scotland, I am not an American.
I will read extensive coverage of it here in the local papers. You need to understand the different people in the world get the same information presented in different ways
So by this definition your news report could be inaccurate?
I rely on the time I spend at the University of Leiden for a lot of my information. When I am not at the Electronic center, I visit collegues over at the human science center for info and debates.
You need to give me your university e-mail then and I can mail you some information regarding the current state of play.
Leiden has some excavations in the Near East, why don’t you ask some of the lecturers in the archaeology dept. if anyone is searching evidence of the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan?
I am fortunate enough right now to live in a country where being a scientist and a creation are an acceptable combination, where the children still learn of god and evolution in the class rooms.
Well Scotland teaches these two subjects as well, in fact we teach about many religions and many different gods.
This isn't ignorance this is acceptance of the weighing of evidence, taught to the children here at an early age.
I know it isn’t ignorance; it is good that kids learn about the religious variety out there, they might happen to be taught one that really appeals to them.
Now sine this was presented to you as a reference for a statement in which you inferred I was either stupid or a fool and I supplied the references as a reply, could you please offer me the same respect and answer the original question.
You want me to supply the same quality of references you did? That would mean that I would have to search for things that undermine my argument and support yours! Nah, no thanks.
But on a serious note. I am not a scientist, I do not really get involved in serious scientific debate over evolution because I know my limitations, I know that any semi-educated scientist would tie me in knots, I am man enough to admit that. However, I have witnessed creationists time and time again having their arguments totally destroyed and appearing to be none the wiser for their experience, all they do is deny deny deny and they think that make creation true.
The reason I answered your post, and I really shouldn’t have replied in the way I did because it dragged the thread of topic, was because you were misinforming readers over the accuracy of the bible and archaeological data.
I do apologise to admin, but I feel passionately about my subject and when I see ill-informed posts like Jester's one, I feel duty bound to respond.
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jester461, posted 09-17-2003 1:37 PM Brian has replied

  
jester461
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 24 (56051)
09-17-2003 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
09-17-2003 11:09 AM


See , you bring the topic here, but you pull the same tatics. You don't like the fact that I told you it appeared it the Telegraf, the leading Dutch newspaper, so you slander the newspaper comparing it to tabloids,"Why not forget the ‘news’, the ‘news’ reports all kinds of garbage, the ‘nun in the bun’ likeness of Mother Teresa was in the ‘news’.". You cant dispute the claim so you slander it.
And yes, I want you to "You want me to supply the same quality of references you did? That would mean that I would have to search for things that undermine my argument and support yours! Nah, no thanks." Thats how you weigh the accurracy of your arguement. Thats why I took a job for 6 months in Iceland, to work with a research team there, that disagreed with some of my beliefs, they changed one or two, and I added to them but know we know why we both believed what we did.
I supplied you with the references you asked for after you first it was a lie, then a joke, then it wasn't a lawsuit, then you just disregard the references you are suppiled with. You openly admit that you will not search for anything that undermines your agruement which makes you illogical and person who only wants to force his opinion on others, without considering a counter point, you weighed down the previous thread with this bullheaded approach and complete disregard for any information, even when published in mainstream newspapers you ignore the info, and that makes you pointless to hold a debate with. I wont weigh down this thread by discussing things with a child that only wants to express his views and critize and insult others who have different views. You openly admit that you refuse to seek the truth, you only want info that agrees with the "truth" you think you already have. It is really a sad and border mental problem when you think that everyone that has different views than you is ill informed, or ignorant, and when you refuse to seek information that challenges your own views. Sad, but end of discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 09-17-2003 11:09 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by dinoflagulates, posted 09-17-2003 1:56 PM jester461 has not replied
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 09-17-2003 3:55 PM jester461 has not replied
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dinoflagulates
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 24 (56053)
09-17-2003 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jester461
09-17-2003 1:37 PM


quote:
See , you bring the topic here, but you pull the same tatics. You don't like the fact that I told you it appeared it the Telegraf, the leading Dutch newspaper, so you slander the newspaper comparing it to tabloids,"Why not forget the ‘news’, the ‘news’ reports all kinds of garbage, the ‘nun in the bun’ likeness of Mother Teresa was in the ‘news’.". You cant dispute the claim so you slander it.
As I too live in the Netherlands I can comment about the Telegraf statement. In Holland the Telegraf is widely known as a sensation seeking newspaper. Of course even if it was in a highly respected newspaper the relevance of that to the point in question would be low. Surely when u want to make your point u look at what archaeologists write about it in peer reviewed articles and not to what your local newspaper writes about it.

This message is a reply to:
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