UCLA student tased multiple times... pointless police violence?

Dang, I still have two posts I want to reply to, one of them now going on three weeks old. But I can never resist a chance to make an ass of myself.The institutions of any society serve to reinforce the norms and structure and order of the society. This is a basic fact from anthropology. Another basic fact from anthropology is that the the norms of society and what people actually believe (even while acting according to the norms) are often very different.The U.S. is a class based society. The institutions of the U.S. will serve to reinforce this. One role of law enforcement is to serve as the occupational forces in the urban areas to keep order among the lower classes. The other role is to harrass the members of the lower classes to remind them that they are the lower class and they have their proper role in society.But we live in a society where we believe that our society is based on "liberty" and "democracy". We cannot admit that we act and expect others to act to reinforce the class distinctions in society. The upper classes don't want to admit to themselves that their lifestyles are based on the exploitation of others, they want to believe that they are good and decent people.Law enforcement officers don't want to admit that, among other duties, they serve to maintain the class structure; they want to believe that they are upholding law and order (which, of course, they are, especially the "order" part), and so serving "freedom and democracy." This is especially important since law enforcement recruits heavily from the very classes that they are to control.So we have (which is not uncommon among societies) a situation where people are acting to maintain a certain aspect of society without recognizing the true implications of their actions. Law enforcement officers, like people in many other sectors of society (including my own field of education, by the way) need to be trained to behave in a manner that will reinforce the class structure of our society, but at the same time the need to be trained to believe that they are serving a very different purpose.So, seeing that there is a mismatch between beliefs of one's actions and their actual implications, it should not be surprising that there will be cases where actions will taken in inappropriate contexts. Here we have an example of where police officers, trained to believe they are upholding law and order, act out in that belief by identifying someone they believe is a threat to law and order and then apply techniques that are actually meant to keep certain social classes in their place.It is also no surprise that many people who benefit from the current social structures as well as people who have been trained to believe that the primary purpose law enforcement are to "serve and protect" a society based on "liberty and democracy" are now trying to find reasonable reasons to exonerate the police officers involved. It is also not surprising that people who believe that the primary purpose law enforcement are to "serve and protect" a society based on "liberty and democracy" but recognize that this is not the case here are so confused about the situation. As I said, it is a basic fact from anthropology that people will not recognize how their behavior supports unspoken norms that are opposed to their acknowledged moral beliefs.Edited by Chiroptera, : Remove inappropriat paragraph break.Edited by Chiroptera, : Corrected typo and edited last sentence of the second to the last paragraph for clarity. Also decided to add a subtitle

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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So, the point is, if you want to gain the respect of the public, just like a child, you have to offer boundaries.

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Although I think you meant something else, I have to remark that this seems to betray a pretty typical attitude within most professions, namely you forget your proper role in society, and tend to think that society serves your profession rather than the other way around.The public is not a child, and the public do not need boundaries. The public is the boss, and it is the public that places boundaries on law enforcement officials as well as the other professions. At least if this were an actual, properly functioning democracy.Edited by Chiroptera, : Corrected my own "Freudian slip" in the subtitle.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

I realize that was what you meant. I was just pointing out that it is also not uncommon among members of a profession like law enforcement (and other professions like physicians, lawyers, and others; read Tal's posts concerning the military) to view the public with a degree of contempt, feeling that the public doesn't really understand the purposes of their profession, when it is the public (at least in a democracy) that decides on the purposes -- and therefore the behavior -- of the profession.Edited to add:I can't but help to wonder if that attitude might have been a factor in this particular incident.Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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Now, if one or two bouncers can throw drunk and violent individuals out of a club without using restraints and without striking or beating these individuals with either their hands or any implement - why, on earth, can't these police officers handle this situation without using Tasers?

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Because the problem wasn't just to eject the person from the premises. The person was questioning and resisting the official representatives of the authority of the state. Any resistance to the state at all can become a terrible example to others that will serve to undermine obedience public order.The sad thing is that it doesn't matter whether the civilian was innocent or guilty, and it doesn't matter whether the the officers will be reprimanded or seriously punished. This incident will have served its purpose. Even if the officers in this case are punished, it will be in the minds of everyone who may be stopped or even harassed by a police officer that the police officer can resort to extreme violence at the slightest provocation. In the end, many people will be more likely to comply meekly with the demands of any officer regardless of how unreasonable those demands are.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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But with the absence of that information, it is the student that was in the wrong.

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What more information do you need? The video that nemesis himself supplied has a sound track that has the officers shouting, "Stand up! Stand up!" Not, "Quit fighting," or, "Let go," or even "Be quiet!" That in itself seems to indicate that the student wasn't posing any threat beyond simply not complying with an order to stand up.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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And then the proceedures of civil law and public outrage drop headlong on these cops, instead of the story being muddled by a riot.

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Actually, I would have preferred the ending where the people rise up and storm the Bastille, but I'm a romantic.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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...then american democracy is in a FAR WORSE a state than I have interpreted it.

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Yeah, well, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but American democracy is probably in worse shape than you could imagine even with this incident. Americans have always traditionally been pretty nervous about democracy, and sometimes are outright afraid of the concept.I guarantee, if the students had done something more physical, and if violence did escalate, then public opinion would overwhelmingly have been on the side of the police.Americans don't even like violent protest. Seattle in 1999 was pretty much a very unusual event, and no one even remembers it, much less considers the people heroes. (The Civil Rights demonstrations in the 60s and 70s are safely in the realm of mythology now, so it is okay to approve of those.)

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Hee hee hee.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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It is time for the left in the US to stand against the authoritarian violence that is carried out in their name.

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What "left" in the US? Do you mean the entire left here in the US? Well, okay, but I'm not sure even the both of us together will accomplish much.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

You mean his naive belief that the US is a democracy? Yeah, I wonder where he gets his information.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

And the "hee hee hee" was part of a short conversation between crashfrog and I, in particular, a response to a D&D reference he made.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Indeed, in the very next post after yours he states: He's no longer reading the thread, it seems, but making up his own conversation as he goes along.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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You say without any evidence whatsoever (indeed, you guarantee it!) that the cops have the favor of public opinion.

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Yes, that is what I said. I said that the American public is pro-cop. I'm not sure how that makes me pro-cop. Is it late where you are?

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Apology accepted.I also apologize for trying to deliberately trying to goad you. I figured that there had to be something odd going on, and I should have just left it all alone until things calmed down.Added by edit:PS, I hope that whatever you troubles were/are, you have been able/will be able to deal with them. Good luck.Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.