Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,358 Year: 3,615/9,624 Month: 486/974 Week: 99/276 Day: 27/23 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Intelligent design. Philosophy of ignorance.
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 56 of 301 (367892)
12-06-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
12-04-2006 12:31 AM


Re: Deep misgivings
I think there is at the heart of your thread a deep misunderstanding about Intelligent Design. You seem to be ascribing Creationist traits to ID which is odd. About the only thing they agree on is that evolution is false. ID makes no attempt to unmask who or what the Designer is, whereas, creationists attempt to tie the Bible into its science. If anything, they model after Ptolemy's beliefs. They aren't satisfied with "Goddidit" any more than you would.
Come on NJ, we all know that the only reason the ID movement avoids talking about god as the intelligent designer is to dodge a high court decision that made creation science unfit for teaching at science classes
We should remember that such things as Intelligent Design, evolution, Big Bang theory, string theory, etc aren't branches of science. They employ branches of science in order to corroborate or incorporate their philosophical view from the whole of science.
That statement makes no sense. string theory isn`t a branch of science????
why such a fuss over our own views unless there really was some truth to it?
The fuss is about people trying to include crap like ID in the science curriculum
Tyson makes a final point I'll bring forward here. This philosophy should be taught in science.
Then what is your objection to ID? The thrust of the argument seeks to marry science and philosophy.
Actually, Tyson meant that it should be taught in science as a pitfall, an istance of behaviour to be avoided.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-04-2006 12:31 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2006 6:59 PM fallacycop has replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 94 of 301 (368907)
12-10-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
12-09-2006 6:59 PM


No, you've imagined this Bogeyman scenario so you can keep it out.
No, it isn't. Can you get a degree in String Theory? No, I didn't think so. What you can do is study the theory by taking advanced astrophysics courses.
Percy already responded quite well to these quotes above.
The fuss is about people trying to include crap like ID in the science curriculum
The rest of post is incoherent.
*pats fallacycop on the head*
Run along now, the big people are talking.
You asked what the fuss was about. All I did was to give you a clear concise honest answer and you give me this condescending crap. I`m sorry to break the news, but you are completely deluded to include yourself in big people crowd when it comes to talking about what science is or isn`t. The hubris was disgusting.
Edited by fallacycop, : fix quote boxes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-09-2006 6:59 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2006 12:08 AM fallacycop has replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 111 of 301 (369186)
12-11-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Hyroglyphx
12-11-2006 9:22 PM


The Schools is not the right forum
I think if there is a considerable amount of support for a topic, there should be a platform for at least discussing its possibilities.
Well, that leaves ID out...
Well, RAZD, I obviously don't see it as delusional, but you are welcome to that opinion. Here's a novel idea: Lets leave it open to discussion in school instead of shunning those who have a different view.
Except that some of us take the education of our kidds very seriously. My kidds science class is not the right forum for a discussion about a fringe movement pseudo-scientific religiously-inspired pet-nonsense-theory to be held. Sorry, but it`s out.
Either ID is so fallacious and so pernicious that it would bring the whole of science into disarray, or its such a good deduction that its a frightening prospect that could supplant the current prevailing theory.
I think ID is fallacious and pernicious. I don`t think it`s a serious threat to sience, for now. But I see it as a potentially serious threat to the quality of my kidds education. I don`t take that very lightly.
Delusional conspiracy theory noted

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-11-2006 9:22 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 114 of 301 (369198)
12-11-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Hyroglyphx
12-11-2006 10:24 PM


How is that wrong when you just conceded that evolution is not a branch of science? I didn't say it wasn't scientifically based, I said that it wasn't a branch of science. Therefore, science isn't threatened by ID, whatsoever, because it isn't challenging the branch, its challenging some of the theories within that branch of sicence.
More nonsense. You say evolution isn`t a branch of sience because nobody gets a bachelors degree in evolution. How much more irrelevant than that can an argument get?
Intelligent design isn't science.
Oh, I see. And what are they doing? Playing with Play-doh?
Good question. What are they doing???? How come no peer reviewed scientific production is coming out of this ID movement???? Oh, but they don`t want to make the hard work of developping a real scientific theory. They just want to short circuit the whole process and jump directly from non-peer-reviewed bookstore publication and expect to be allowed into kidds science classroom. No way, Jose. That Ain`t gonna Happen.
Looking at creatures that employ camouflage as a defense or offense, I, personally, cannot see how anyone can miss the intent. That certainly doesn't make my view correct, but lets examine it a little.
Your inability to perceive or understand is nobody else`s problem. Argument from ignorance noted.
Creatures, such as the praying mantis, chameleon or the octopus each have some sort of camouflage ability. Lets start with the mantis. This critter has a body shape that looks like some twigs from a bushel, blending in with an actual plant. Looking at this creature, how can anyone possibly think that this amazing feature came by way of happenstance?
You would either have to figure out a way that any creature could develop this or concede that either the mantis willed itself, genetically, or that nature has a mind.
Or admit that you don`t know. More argument from ignorance
Similarly, the chameleon employs camouflage by using its chromatophores. The chameleon has these highly specialized cells that lie in two layers underneath the skin. The chromatophores contain a yellow and red pigment. Underneath this first layer are guanophores. These guanophores reflect light creating the illusion of incandescence.
Octopi and some other cephalopods are similar in that they can manipulate chromatophores by contraction and expansion as the result of controlling muscle fibers. They can terminate this color shifting almost instantly with motor neurons. As a result, these color changes can come about through the dispersal or aggregation of granules within the cell under hormonal control.
Now, if we were to assert that these instances are the result of a natural progression of evolution, then aren't we going to have to explain the mechanisms and reasons for this occurrence?
Evolutionists are not obliged to know exactly how any specific instance of evolution took place in order for the overall theory to be true
Why did these creatures develop this distinct feature and no other, when all organisms could benefit from them as well?
How come people speak english in England but speak italian in Italy?
How did we lose the procryptic ability? I don’t know about you, but I sure would not mind blending in with my environment. It certainly seems beneficial to me. Why is it lost during our divergence?
If you cannot logically answer this, then you will have to explain how the mantis, chameleon, or octopus granted itself these procryptic abilities. We know they are able to manipulate their body, but how would they be able to create this in their offspring’s genetic code?
Random mutation + natural selection
If you cannot answer that either, then you are going to have to admit that nature has a mind and that it exhibits intelligence and intent. If you cannot do that either then we aren't we inescapably driven towards an alternative answer? Out of all other options, we would have to concede that something else is the cause of this spectacular feat.
You could also admit that you don`t know. One more argument from ignorance has been noted
Does this, in any way, shape or form verify that God created this? Certainly not, however, couldn't we greatly assume that something cognizant is the cause of these features, because as we’ve seen, there is nothing in nature that would, alone, account for these occurrences. What other choice do we have left?
We can argue about who or what the Creator{s} are/is until we’re blue in the face and dripping with perspiration, but that much is inconsequential to the direct question. I know this much, however; that evolution does not answer the finer details of how this was even possible. Furthermore, it has nothing to support the belief. And the law of parsimony on animals with procryptism seems to speak the loudest of intent.
Your whole post is a freshman`s level argument from Ignorance. I would Grade you a C
*Pats NJ on the head*
Edited by fallacycop, : spelling
Edited by fallacycop, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-11-2006 10:24 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 118 of 301 (369206)
12-12-2006 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Hyroglyphx
12-12-2006 12:08 AM


Re: Proving my point
The fuss is about people trying to include crap like ID in the science curriculum
Well, somebody thought that the heliocentric model was better than the geocentric model...? Some people thought that the round earth is better than the flat earth model too.
That`s exactly right. And some of these someones that thought the heliocentric model was better were put to death (Geordano Bruno comes to mind) by the church. A church that didn`t know to keep themselves to theology and let the scientists do the science.
You say how much you detest ID, but don't really give indications as to why, aside from never forgetting to mention how much that its 'crap.'
My reasons were stated above. Geordano Bruno`s Death is my reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2006 12:08 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 139 of 301 (369413)
12-12-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Hyroglyphx
12-12-2006 6:08 PM


The second point is that ID, Big bang, evolution, and string theory, are just that-- theories. They are based on inferences that employ a variety of branches of science to support the overall thesis-- which we should encourage, not stifle. I didn't say, or even allude, that any one of those aren't making scientific inquiries. Of course they are. My reason for mentioning it is that they aren't branches of sciences, they are theories that use utilize those branches.
That distinction you are making between a branch of science and theories that make use of these sciences doesn`t really exist. It`s like saying that pulling out the leafs of a tree don`t heart the tree because they are not branches of the tree. they are just leafs that use the branches of the tree for support. I hope that helps clear that one out.
Behe, Dembski, Wells, etc have nothing to do with science?
They may have science degrees. But what they have been doing is not science because they have not been following the rules. They have been publishing books directed to the public instead of peer reviewed publications. They`ve been trying to short circuit the scientific process and jump from non-peer-reviewed publications directly into the classrooms. Sorry, but that`s not how it`s supposed to be done.
Yes, but something else would have been. I'm not merely speaking about humans. I'm speaking about the organism that is most closely related to the Chameleon that doesn't have the procryptic ability.
Name one. I think all camallions have this ability. But even if some doesn`t, that wouldn`t rule out evolution, because changes in the enviroment might change what is advantageous for a specific species and, therefore, change what is selected by natural selection.
For instance: all primates lack the ability to produce vitamine C (They have the gene for the enzime that produces it, but it`s defective) This is a disadvantage. How does evolution explain that? All primates may have evolved form a commom ancestor that had so much vitamine C in its diet that it was irrelevant for them whether they could produce theier own vitamine C. How does ID explain all the primates having the same defective gene while no other mammals have the same defect? As you can see, this is much more of a problem for ID then it is for evolution.
Who does nature know what a twig is and that an animal masquerading as one would be a very successful predator if nature is not cognizant?
That`s such a basic point of evolution that the fact that you would even ask that question shows that you haven`t understood anything at all yet. that`s surprising.
Nature is not cognizant. But throught a combination of random mutations and natural selection it can create new forms of life that have the appearence of having been designed, eventhough they have not.
How can they get around that? Being that I see this whole debate is more of an ideological battle more than a question of how good the science is, it seems that no matter what happens, there will be this factor of bias.
That`s where you go wrong. The battle really is between good science and bad pseudo-science. Only the people in your camp see it as being an ideological battle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2006 6:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 167 of 301 (369843)
12-14-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Hyroglyphx
12-14-2006 7:01 PM


Scientific theory employs branches of science to verify its claims. Where's the ambiguity in that? Theory does not encompass its own branch of science.
Eh?
Are we still talking about that?
I thought it was plenty clear to everybody by now that this difference between the role of science theory and science branches is just a misconception. your persistance is incomprehensible. What people call a branch of science is a collection of interconnected scientific theories. Take the theories away, and there will be nothing left.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-14-2006 7:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 168 of 301 (369849)
12-14-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Hyroglyphx
12-14-2006 10:53 PM


You're telling me that the mantis just so happened to procure this ability by a change in a single base or in a nucleotide or a whole sequence? That seems like a fantastic coincidence, wouldn't you agree?
Your own incredulity, by itself, is not a valid argumment agaist evolution (or anything else for that matter). You have to substantiate your argumment with reasons why a combination of random mutations and natural selection is, in your view, an unsuitable explanation for the phenomenon. Simply stating you don`t believe it doesn`t cut it.
That's a terrific hypothesis except that it can't be verified by anything.
just your opinion
Aside from which, competing against each other isn't the issue. Its how such an ability can come about at all, that just so happened to look intentional. I think for face value even you could concede that it certainly appears intended. That doesn't mean that it necessarily was, but would you agree? And being that the Mantis isn't the only creature to employ such a marvelous feature makes the odds of lightening striking twice or thrice, or whatever, seem more than implausible, but closer to impossible.
more arguments from incredulity
Natural selection is pretty much moot in the instance of something like this developing.
Another unsubstantiated statement of your opinion
I think the problem is that you know little about it, not me, which might explain your unflinching support of something so untenable. The vast preponderance of mutations are either neutral or detrimental. Even supposing that a beneficial mutation came along, we aren't talking about one mutation, we're talking about a slew of them that acts off of the premise of the first. Seriously, what are the odds that the mantis just so happened to look like a twig, or an octopus and chameleon that can blend in with its background, all from a series of mutations + natural selection?
Why don`t you answer that question yourself. What are those odds? Do you have any reason to believe that the answer to that question will cohoborate your position? if so, what reason is that?
Beyond that, the fact that the contrivances that make camouflage possible are so widespread that it would take numerous mutations occurring relatively simultaneously.
Once more you give us an unsubstantiated statement of your opinion
The ability for variation is actually depleting with every successive generation, not becoming more suitable overall. We all know this intuitively, which is why such a high stress on mutations to save the day. The only problem is, they don't save anything-- they kill without impunity.
One final instance of a statement of your opinion.
Do you have anything substantial at all to give us to support ID, or all you have to offer is that repetitive statement of desbelief that random mutation+natural selection could have done it???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-14-2006 10:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 251 of 301 (371745)
12-22-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
12-22-2006 6:25 PM


Dawkin's idea of a meme holds that an idea or an emotion is a physical entity whereas a theist such as myself is inclined to the believe that they are metaphysical.
I think that Dawkin is aware that memes live and die inside people`s mind. So, I really think your point is mute here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 12-22-2006 6:25 PM GDR has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 281 of 301 (372060)
12-24-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by GDR
12-24-2006 5:20 PM


Re: Abstractions
I do think that she has limited her ability to learn by rejecting knowledge based on the non-scientific. For example: I think most of us would agree that love is good and hate is bad. It's something we take for granted but I don't believe that we will ever find out why we feel that way using the empirical method.
Modern technology is coming to the point where it`s possible to see what`s going on iside the brain in real time when people have emotional reactions. May be the empirical method has something to say about why we feel the way we do after all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by GDR, posted 12-24-2006 5:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by GDR, posted 12-24-2006 7:07 PM fallacycop has replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 287 of 301 (372231)
12-25-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by GDR
12-24-2006 7:07 PM


Re: Abstractions
Go back to cavediver's point in this thread.
http://EvC Forum: Intelligent design. Philosophy of ignorance. -->EvC Forum: Intelligent design. Philosophy of ignorance.
It doesn't matter what we find out about how we feel, but science can't answer why we feel anything at all.
I think that cavediver`s point was that science cannot answer the question "why is there a universe at all?"
But given that there is a universe, I don`t see why science shouldn`t be able to answer questions like "why do we feel anything at all?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by GDR, posted 12-24-2006 7:07 PM GDR has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 288 of 301 (372232)
12-25-2006 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Buzsaw
12-25-2006 11:34 AM


SOON, IN A THEATER NEAR YOU, BUZ`S PREDICTIONS FOR 2007 (MAY BE?)
I have gained a significant amount of knowledge regarding history, the present and future events by a lifelong intensive study of Biblical prophecy.
I conclude by emphatically stating that this is a viable unscientific source of knowledge acquired outside of the science method.
Oh really? So why don`t you give us some prediction of an important event that will happen in 2007 based in you biblical prophecy expertise?
Better yet, why don`t you give us a list of them. that way ayear from now we can test the bible`s predictive power by comparing your list with what really happened to happen. Are you up to the challenge?
Edited by fallacycop, : fix confusing phrase

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2006 11:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5539 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 289 of 301 (372234)
12-25-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Buzsaw
12-25-2006 12:09 PM


Re: Gaps & Unknows.
Those problematic gaps and unknowns seem to factor in all of the philosophies and sciences and not necessarily so unique to ID.
Buz, The problem ain`t the gaps. It`s the fact that some people seem unable to resist the temptation to stick their poor little gods in those gaps. Hear that sound? Another gap got closed by scientific progress. I hope there were no gods in that one. Man!! that`s gotta hurt...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2006 12:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024