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Author | Topic: Fulfilled Prophecy | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Let us note that in this entire paragraph there is no support for the claim that Revelation refers to a cashless society. So the key point is not addressed. The fact that a truly cashless society is decades off, at the least, also serves to warn against this verse as referring to the near future.
quote: Revelation 13:14-15 could more easily refer to magically (or by trickery) causing an idol to speak. It refers to making a (single) "image", which is "given breath". by a miracle-working (second) beast. If it is just one single image which is miraculously given the power to speak it certainly isn't television. Nor is it a computer. (Nor is trade restricted to the internet even now - or in the forseeable future.) Revelation 11:8-12 refers only to people originating from different parts of the world seeing the bodies. Foreigners visiting great cities were hardly uncommon at the time Revelation was written - so there's simply no need for television in these verses. In Revelation 18 the city is supposeldy destroyed by God, so there is no need for it to refer to human technology (remember Sodom and Gomorrah ?) and the leaders of the "world" are only supposed to see the smoke of the city burning. If there's a world government then these leaders could easily be close enough to the capital to see it destroyed ! And if Jesus second coming isn't miraculous I don't know what is. Isn't it a bit insulting to say that God needs the help of human technology - if the verse (which you don't specify) isn't hyperbole in the first place ? It's pretty clear that you can't really defend any of these claims as serious predictions either.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi buz,
I had a look at the 'fulfilled' messianic prophecy link, do you realise that not a single shred of evidence is provided to support any of the prophecies? For example, where is the evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? BTW, Isaiah 7:14 is NOT a messianic prophecy. Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23) as a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16), of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14), and of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1) Herod killing the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18) Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15) Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3) Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17) Preached good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21) Performed miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35) Cleansed the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13) Ministered in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Entered Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9) First presented Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11) Rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; 1 Peter 2:7) Died a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving: rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48), betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18), sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15), silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14), being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31), beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26), spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30), piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31), being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38), praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34), piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34), given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36), no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36), buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60), casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24). Rose from the dead! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31) Ascended into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9) Sat down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3) All you have here is ciruclar reasoning! Your link can be summed up like this; Chapter A verse B is true because Chapter X verse Y tells us so! Give us some real evidence Buz, links such as the messianic prophecy one only serve to prove how gullible some people can be. Brian.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Any "prophecy" that requires the hindsight knowledge of the event already having taken place for it to be interpreted as prophesising that event is just circular and will end up in circular arguments.
No biblical prophecy is specific enough to predict anything without the benefit of hindsight.It all lies in the interpretation. No biblical prophecy (or any other I am aware of for that matter) has ever specifically predicted anything against which it can be judged to have failed in it's prediction. Prophecy is just a word for an overly vague, highly interpreted, supposed prediction which is unfalsifiable by the very nature of it's vagueness. For a track record of successful predictions I suggest we should look to science. Not theology .......
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
The problem is that you misunderstand what prophecy is - or what it was intended to be in the Bible.
Most Bible prophecies would fall into the category of "The Assyrians are coming! The Assyrians are coming!" The prophets' role wasn't to tell the people something new or surprizing. Any knowledgeable person could have figured out that the Assyrians were aggressive and would eventually attack Israel. The prophets' role was to give a wake-up call: smarten up and do what God says if you want Him to protect you. The prophets' role was certainly not to tell the people about some time in their distant future, especially not our time. (How infernally arrogant can you get, concluding that every prophecy in the Bible is about me, me, me?) If a prophecy mentions Nebuchadnezzar, it means Nebuchadnezzar - not Alexander or Napoleon. If you're going to talk about "fulfilled prophecy", you have to look at what was prophesied and what happened after - to the people the prophets were talking to. All you're doing is looking in your own back yard and claiming that the Bible predicted your birdbath. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: Buz, please point out where I implicate Jesus and the apostles all as liars. If you cannot link to the post where I said that please retract your slander. 1. Have you or have you not in the past taken the position that the only miracles you believe actually happened were the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus as per the Nicene Creed? 2. Have you ever accepted any other miracle as authentic having actually occurred? 3. Do you now take the position that other miracles of the Bible, including the miracles of Jesus and the apostles may have actually happened? I full well remember what your previous position has been on miracles in the past, though I don't know where to find it as it was quite a long time ago. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: It is VERY specific; "for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." The text says that one of understanding can count the number of the beast which was 666. It is obvious here that the number has some mystery about it which only someone of understanding can count it, implying that it may be some numerical code. Many Biblical scholars assign numbers to different beings. The number six is usually ascribed to man. I'm not sure how significant that it is. Apparently either the number a name or a mark must accompany each identification mark of the ones bearing the mark for commerce. The thread is not for delving into unknowns regarding this. My point remains that what we see emerging appears to be a cashless monetary system as we observe a continuous diminishing of cash transactions as per the prophecy. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
1. Have you or have you not in the past taken the position that the only miracles you believe actually happened were the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus as per the Nicene Creed? No Buz, I have not taken that position. Either produce the post where I said that or admit you are once again slandering me.
2. Have you ever accepted any other miracle as authentic having actually occurred? I don't know Buz, has anyone ever presented credible evidence that a miracle actually occurred?
3. Do you now take the position that other miracles of the Bible, including the miracles of Jesus and the apostles may have actually happened? May have? I never denied that they may have occurred. All I have said is that there is no evidence that they actually happened. Now that you have once again tried to move the goalposts and misrepresent my position, could you show the honesty to follow through with my request and retract your slander as well as apologize for this inquisition so that we can continue to address the nonsense included in the Original Post? The request which you have tried to dodge away from is:
jar writes: Buz, please point out where I implicate Jesus and the apostles all as liars. If you cannot link to the post where I said that please retract your slander. I have a prophecy Buz, to head back towards the topic. I Prophesy that Buz will continue to dodge and weave and misrepresent folk because he cannot defend the nonsense he presents as Prophecy or even support his attempts to change the subject. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The thread is not for delving into unknowns regarding this. My point remains that what we see emerging appears to be a cashless monetary system as we observe a continuous diminishing of cash transactions as per the prophecy. Except Buz that cashless transactions were common at the time the so called prophecy was written so it could not be a prophecy and there is NO support in the passage for cashless transactions anyway. I notice you are fond of making assumptions but NOT providing any support but I will post it yet again so people can see you are just making stuff up. Revelations 13:16-18
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Please point out where it mentions cash or coin? In addition it says that each person will have the mark and even says what the mark will be, "666". A mark that is the same for every person does not identify the individual and so is unlike credit cards or tax ids that are unique to the individual. Sorry Buz, nothing there but your fantasy. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: Nahum is about the destruction of Nineveh (see Nahum 2:8) ! Again it is obviously not about the Industrial Revolution, but events long past when the Industrial Revolution occurred. (A quick check suggests 612 BC as the date !) My point did not pertain to Nahum 2:8. If you read chapter one of the book you will see that the book deals with the latter days and a few verses before the verses I sited in the beginning of chapter two, Judah is mentioned. This is often the case in Biblical prophecy that the end time events come into play. Read chapter one verses three to six where some significant events also mentioned in the book of Revelation are aluded to, clearly referring to the events of the end time where the rivers dry up and much of the world is burned as are many people in it also. Ninevah is not actually honed in on until verse 8 of chapter 2. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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anglagard Member (Idle past 837 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Here are some of my favorite Biblical prophecies:
quote: quote: quote: quote: The thing I like about these Biblical prophecies is that they are the only ones I know of that seem to come true on a daily basis. BTW, the wiki article on False Prophets I lifted these quotes from begins with this as the second sentence:
quote: Revelations predicts television?
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Revelations predicts television? Making false prophecies such as we have seen in this thread is considered Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: Now that you have once again tried to move the goalposts and misrepresent my position, could you show the honesty to follow through with my request and retract your slander as well as apologize for this inquisition so that we can continue to address the nonsense included in the Original Post? Jar, you are the one who falsely fingered me for diminishing from the Bible and continually makes personal slanders that I am blaspheming the Holy Spirit, et al. This is leading off topic but since you are continuing to malign my integrity I will submit this one post to back my contention that it is you and not buz who diminishes from the Biblical record. You will get no apologies or retractions from me so you needn't waste your time and thread bandwith shouting demands for them. Btw, labeling Jesus's miracles as tales is tantamount denying them as actual events. You contradict yourself when you say the life death and resurrection of Jesus is likely true but label Biblical events in his life as tales. The following evidence shows that you either outright state or imply that much of the Bible is essentially a hoax and a lie since it claims to be truth and not "tales, folklore" and "fables" as you claim.
JarQuotes writes: Exodus. If it happened it bears no resemblance to the story in the Bible. Moses and the 10 Commandments. Almost certainly apocryphal. pilars of fire etc. Yup, folklore. settling of the promised land. If by that you mean some conquest of Canaan, then almost certainly didn't happen. most of the rest are also simply folklore. life, death and resurrection of Jesus, most likely true. http://EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross? -->EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross? Depends on the incident. For example Joshua's long day was not a miracle, it just never happened. Tales of Jesus healing the sick, turning wine into water, raising the dead would most certainly be miracles if they ever happened. http://EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross? -->EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross? Absodamnlutely. One dead giveaway is that there isn't one story but at least two. Just like the Creation myths, the flood myths are simply anthologies of folktales.EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross? Well, if you were to survey the 'theistic-evos' that are here I think you'd find several telling characteristics. they all understand that the Biblical accounts were never meant to be read literally. they all understand that there was never a Noachian Flood. ................. they all understand that there is no evidence to support a human population bottleneck as would be seen if everyone descended from the 8 or 9 people that survived a Biblical flood. There is no problem fitting Theism, even Christiantity and Science. You do have to understand though that there is no way to have the Literal Bible fit with reality.EvC Forum: Catastrophic Plate Tectonics - Fact or Fiction? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The following evidence shows that you either outright state or imply that much of the Bible is essentially a hoax and a lie since it claims to be truth and not "tales, folklore" and "fables" as you claim. Buz makes the assertion above then claims he is providing my quotes. Let's look and see how well those assertions stand up. Is Buz as incompetent in his research here as he seems to be with the Bible? Buz claims:
Buz writes: Exodus. If it happened it bears no resemblance to the story in the Bible. Moses and the 10 Commandments. Almost certainly apocryphal. pilars of fire etc. Yup, folklore. settling of the promised land. If by that you mean some conquest of Canaan, then almost certainly didn't happen. most of the rest are also simply folklore. life, death and resurrection of Jesus, most likely true. Here folk is a link that actually works. Message 16. Read the whole post folk. Where in there do I call GOD or Jesus a liar Buz or claim a hoax? The you move to Message 19. Read the whole post folk. In that you can see Buz again accused me of calling God a liar and I responded:
jar writes: I've found many that disagree with me in many areas but that didn't make GOD out to be a liar. The other links are:
Message 36, Message 102 Like the claims of cashless society and tv and credit cards in Revelations, the only place in any of those messages where I call Jesus or God a liar is in Buz's fantasy. Buz your scholarship seems to be about the same whether you are posting on science, economics, posts here at EvC or theology. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Come the fuck on, Jar. Sure, Buz's prophecies are laughable, but you're carrying on in a way that's embarassing yourself and demeaning your station as an admin.
I think you set a pretty poor example with stuff like "Buz totally incompetent as well". Two admins ought to be able to develop a better way to handle disagreements than this sort of carrying on, and I don't mean to impugne Buz's behavior (although I find his reasoning inadequate for the reasons I've put forth), because he's clearly comporting himself a lot better than you are. Relax, already. Are you under the impression that there's a magic number of insults that will cause Buz to shrug his shoulders and realize how wrong he's been? (I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.)
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anglagard Member (Idle past 837 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
FYI, Jar is no longer an admin
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