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Author Topic:   Fulfilled Prophecy
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 46 of 303 (374308)
01-04-2007 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
01-03-2007 7:42 PM


Re: Not Prophecy but rather Nonsense.
quote:
1. I didn't say cash less. I said cashless, just as the prophecy implies. The global monetary systems are continuously becoming more cashless and computerized with numbers and marks, et all. You cannot deny that. It is also becoming more essential to produce your social security number in order to buy and sell, cash or no cash. Here in NY you can't get a tax resale permit without the number and in fact the number becomes your resale certificate number. If you sell as a merchant, you need the number to account to the government for the tax you owe on it, et al.
Let us note that in this entire paragraph there is no support for the claim that Revelation refers to a cashless society. So the key point is not addressed. The fact that a truly cashless society is decades off, at the least, also serves to warn against this verse as referring to the near future.
quote:
2. TV is also implied. It is indeed a speaking image. So is your computer. There is an ever increasing electronic economy with buying and selling on the internet. This also requires a credit card with numbers on it et al.
I failed to mention also regarding TV that there are at least three scriptures which clearly imply TV and other electronic image/speaking media. These are Revelation 11:8-12 where the peoples of the nations view the dead bodies of two men at one location. Revelation 18:9-18 depicts the kings/rulers of the earth and the shipmasters far off viewing the smoke of the city, mystery Babylon which is destroyed in one hour, implying both electronic media/speaking image and explosives which can destroy a city in one hour. The third is that all will see Jesus coming in the clouds when he comes. All three of these were impossible until after the industrial revolution and the emergence of TV and other electronic media.
Revelation 13:14-15 could more easily refer to magically (or by trickery) causing an idol to speak. It refers to making a (single) "image", which is "given breath". by a miracle-working (second) beast. If it is just one single image which is miraculously given the power to speak it certainly isn't television. Nor is it a computer. (Nor is trade restricted to the internet even now - or in the forseeable future.)
Revelation 11:8-12 refers only to people originating from different parts of the world seeing the bodies. Foreigners visiting great cities were hardly uncommon at the time Revelation was written - so there's simply no need for television in these verses.
In Revelation 18 the city is supposeldy destroyed by God, so there is no need for it to refer to human technology (remember Sodom and Gomorrah ?) and the leaders of the "world" are only supposed to see the smoke of the city burning. If there's a world government then these leaders could easily be close enough to the capital to see it destroyed !
And if Jesus second coming isn't miraculous I don't know what is. Isn't it a bit insulting to say that God needs the help of human technology - if the verse (which you don't specify) isn't hyperbole in the first place ?
It's pretty clear that you can't really defend any of these claims as serious predictions either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 01-03-2007 7:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 47 of 303 (374311)
01-04-2007 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
01-03-2007 8:44 PM


Re: Standard of Specificity
Hi buz,
I had a look at the 'fulfilled' messianic prophecy link, do you realise that not a single shred of evidence is provided to support any of the prophecies?
For example, where is the evidence that Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
BTW, Isaiah 7:14 is NOT a messianic prophecy.
Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23) as a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16), of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14), and of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
Herod killing the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
Preached good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
Performed miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
Cleansed the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
Ministered in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16)
Entered Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
First presented Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
Rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; 1 Peter 2:7)
Died a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving: rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48), betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18), sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15), silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14), being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31), beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26), spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30), piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31), being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38), praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34), piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34), given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36), no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36), buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60), casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24).
Rose from the dead! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
Ascended into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
Sat down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)
All you have here is ciruclar reasoning!
Your link can be summed up like this;
Chapter A verse B is true because Chapter X verse Y tells us so!
Give us some real evidence Buz, links such as the messianic prophecy one only serve to prove how gullible some people can be.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 01-03-2007 8:44 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 48 of 303 (374330)
01-04-2007 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-02-2007 7:37 PM


True Prophecies
Any "prophecy" that requires the hindsight knowledge of the event already having taken place for it to be interpreted as prophesising that event is just circular and will end up in circular arguments.
No biblical prophecy is specific enough to predict anything without the benefit of hindsight.
It all lies in the interpretation.
No biblical prophecy (or any other I am aware of for that matter) has ever specifically predicted anything against which it can be judged to have failed in it's prediction.
Prophecy is just a word for an overly vague, highly interpreted, supposed prediction which is unfalsifiable by the very nature of it's vagueness.
For a track record of successful predictions I suggest we should look to science. Not theology .......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-02-2007 7:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 303 (374361)
01-04-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-02-2007 7:37 PM


The problem is that you misunderstand what prophecy is - or what it was intended to be in the Bible.
Most Bible prophecies would fall into the category of "The Assyrians are coming! The Assyrians are coming!" The prophets' role wasn't to tell the people something new or surprizing. Any knowledgeable person could have figured out that the Assyrians were aggressive and would eventually attack Israel.
The prophets' role was to give a wake-up call: smarten up and do what God says if you want Him to protect you.
The prophets' role was certainly not to tell the people about some time in their distant future, especially not our time. (How infernally arrogant can you get, concluding that every prophecy in the Bible is about me, me, me?)
If a prophecy mentions Nebuchadnezzar, it means Nebuchadnezzar - not Alexander or Napoleon.
If you're going to talk about "fulfilled prophecy", you have to look at what was prophesied and what happened after - to the people the prophets were talking to. All you're doing is looking in your own back yard and claiming that the Bible predicted your birdbath.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-02-2007 7:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 303 (374572)
01-04-2007 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
01-03-2007 11:35 PM


Re: Buz misrepresents folk yet again
jar writes:
Buz, please point out where I implicate Jesus and the apostles all as liars.
If you cannot link to the post where I said that please retract your slander.
1. Have you or have you not in the past taken the position that the only miracles you believe actually happened were the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus as per the Nicene Creed?
2. Have you ever accepted any other miracle as authentic having actually occurred?
3. Do you now take the position that other miracles of the Bible, including the miracles of Jesus and the apostles may have actually happened?
I full well remember what your previous position has been on miracles in the past, though I don't know where to find it as it was quite a long time ago.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 01-03-2007 11:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 9:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 303 (374577)
01-04-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
01-03-2007 11:30 PM


Re: Not Money.
jar writes:
It is VERY specific; "for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
The text says that one of understanding can count the number of the beast which was 666. It is obvious here that the number has some mystery about it which only someone of understanding can count it, implying that it may be some numerical code. Many Biblical scholars assign numbers to different beings. The number six is usually ascribed to man. I'm not sure how significant that it is. Apparently either the number a name or a mark must accompany each identification mark of the ones bearing the mark for commerce.
The thread is not for delving into unknowns regarding this. My point remains that what we see emerging appears to be a cashless monetary system as we observe a continuous diminishing of cash transactions as per the prophecy.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 01-03-2007 11:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 9:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 303 (374578)
01-04-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
01-04-2007 8:43 PM


Instead of admitting his slander Buz tries the Moving Goalpost Gallop
1. Have you or have you not in the past taken the position that the only miracles you believe actually happened were the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus as per the Nicene Creed?
No Buz, I have not taken that position. Either produce the post where I said that or admit you are once again slandering me.
2. Have you ever accepted any other miracle as authentic having actually occurred?
I don't know Buz, has anyone ever presented credible evidence that a miracle actually occurred?
3. Do you now take the position that other miracles of the Bible, including the miracles of Jesus and the apostles may have actually happened?
May have? I never denied that they may have occurred. All I have said is that there is no evidence that they actually happened.
Now that you have once again tried to move the goalposts and misrepresent my position, could you show the honesty to follow through with my request and retract your slander as well as apologize for this inquisition so that we can continue to address the nonsense included in the Original Post?
The request which you have tried to dodge away from is:
jar writes:
Buz, please point out where I implicate Jesus and the apostles all as liars.
If you cannot link to the post where I said that please retract your slander.
I have a prophecy Buz, to head back towards the topic.

I Prophesy that Buz will continue to dodge and weave and misrepresent folk because he cannot defend the nonsense he presents as Prophecy or even support his attempts to change the subject.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2007 8:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 01-05-2007 12:07 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 303 (374582)
01-04-2007 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
01-04-2007 9:01 PM


Buz makes stuff up again
The thread is not for delving into unknowns regarding this. My point remains that what we see emerging appears to be a cashless monetary system as we observe a continuous diminishing of cash transactions as per the prophecy.
Except Buz that cashless transactions were common at the time the so called prophecy was written so it could not be a prophecy and there is NO support in the passage for cashless transactions anyway.
I notice you are fond of making assumptions but NOT providing any support but I will post it yet again so people can see you are just making stuff up.
Revelations 13:16-18
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Please point out where it mentions cash or coin?
In addition it says that each person will have the mark and even says what the mark will be, "666".
A mark that is the same for every person does not identify the individual and so is unlike credit cards or tax ids that are unique to the individual.
Sorry Buz, nothing there but your fantasy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2007 9:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 303 (374584)
01-04-2007 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
01-03-2007 2:28 AM


Re: Buz comes up empty again.
PaulK writes:
Nahum is about the destruction of Nineveh (see Nahum 2:8) ! Again it is obviously not about the Industrial Revolution, but events long past when the Industrial Revolution occurred. (A quick check suggests 612 BC as the date !)
My point did not pertain to Nahum 2:8. If you read chapter one of the book you will see that the book deals with the latter days and a few verses before the verses I sited in the beginning of chapter two, Judah is mentioned. This is often the case in Biblical prophecy that the end time events come into play. Read chapter one verses three to six where some significant events also mentioned in the book of Revelation are aluded to, clearly referring to the events of the end time where the rivers dry up and much of the world is burned as are many people in it also. Ninevah is not actually honed in on until verse 8 of chapter 2.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 01-03-2007 2:28 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2007 2:30 AM Buzsaw has replied
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 55 of 303 (374594)
01-04-2007 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-02-2007 7:37 PM


False Prophets
Here are some of my favorite Biblical prophecies:
quote:
Matthew 7:15 - 23 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and do mighty works in your name? And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, depart from me you evildoers."
quote:
Matthew 24:11 - 13 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
quote:
The Second Epistle of Peter, chapter two begins with these words:
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
quote:
The First Epistle of John, chapter four begins with these words:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
The thing I like about these Biblical prophecies is that they are the only ones I know of that seem to come true on a daily basis.
BTW, the wiki article on False Prophets I lifted these quotes from begins with this as the second sentence:
quote:
Prophets are particularly important figures in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and to prophesy falsely is seen as one of the worst forms of blasphemy since it falsely claims the speaker is acting with divine authority directly on behalf of God.
Revelations predicts television?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-02-2007 7:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 303 (374595)
01-04-2007 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by anglagard
01-04-2007 10:47 PM


Re: False Prophets
Revelations predicts television?
Making false prophecies such as we have seen in this thread is considered Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 303 (374614)
01-05-2007 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
01-04-2007 9:02 PM


Re: Instead of admitting his slander Buz tries the Moving Goalpost Gallop
jar writes:
Now that you have once again tried to move the goalposts and misrepresent my position, could you show the honesty to follow through with my request and retract your slander as well as apologize for this inquisition so that we can continue to address the nonsense included in the Original Post?
Jar, you are the one who falsely fingered me for diminishing from the Bible and continually makes personal slanders that I am blaspheming the Holy Spirit, et al. This is leading off topic but since you are continuing to malign my integrity I will submit this one post to back my contention that it is you and not buz who diminishes from the Biblical record. You will get no apologies or retractions from me so you needn't waste your time and thread bandwith shouting demands for them. Btw, labeling Jesus's miracles as tales is tantamount denying them as actual events. You contradict yourself when you say the life death and resurrection of Jesus is likely true but label Biblical events in his life as tales.
The following evidence shows that you either outright state or imply that much of the Bible is essentially a hoax and a lie since it claims to be truth and not "tales, folklore" and "fables" as you claim.
JarQuotes writes:
Exodus. If it happened it bears no resemblance to the story in the Bible.
Moses and the 10 Commandments. Almost certainly apocryphal.
pilars of fire etc. Yup, folklore.
settling of the promised land. If by that you mean some conquest of Canaan, then almost certainly didn't happen.
most of the rest are also simply folklore.
life, death and resurrection of Jesus, most likely true.
http://EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross? -->EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross?
Depends on the incident. For example Joshua's long day was not a miracle, it just never happened. Tales of Jesus healing the sick, turning wine into water, raising the dead would most certainly be miracles if they ever happened.
http://EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross? -->EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross?
Absodamnlutely. One dead giveaway is that there isn't one story but at least two. Just like the Creation myths, the flood myths are simply anthologies of folktales.
EvC Forum: Who to believe , Ham or Ross?
Well, if you were to survey the 'theistic-evos' that are here I think you'd find several telling characteristics.
they all understand that the Biblical accounts were never meant to be read literally.
they all understand that there was never a Noachian Flood.
.................
they all understand that there is no evidence to support a human population bottleneck as would be seen if everyone descended from the 8 or 9 people that survived a Biblical flood.
There is no problem fitting Theism, even Christiantity and Science. You do have to understand though that there is no way to have the Literal Bible fit with reality.
EvC Forum: Catastrophic Plate Tectonics - Fact or Fiction?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 9:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 01-05-2007 12:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 303 (374618)
01-05-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
01-05-2007 12:07 AM


Buz totally incompetent as well.
The following evidence shows that you either outright state or imply that much of the Bible is essentially a hoax and a lie since it claims to be truth and not "tales, folklore" and "fables" as you claim.
Buz makes the assertion above then claims he is providing my quotes.
Let's look and see how well those assertions stand up. Is Buz as incompetent in his research here as he seems to be with the Bible?
Buz claims:
Buz writes:
Exodus. If it happened it bears no resemblance to the story in the Bible.
Moses and the 10 Commandments. Almost certainly apocryphal.
pilars of fire etc. Yup, folklore.
settling of the promised land. If by that you mean some conquest of Canaan, then almost certainly didn't happen.
most of the rest are also simply folklore.
life, death and resurrection of Jesus, most likely true.
Here folk is a link that actually works. Message 16. Read the whole post folk.
Where in there do I call GOD or Jesus a liar Buz or claim a hoax?
The you move to Message 19. Read the whole post folk.
In that you can see Buz again accused me of calling God a liar and I responded:
jar writes:
I've found many that disagree with me in many areas but that didn't make GOD out to be a liar.
The other links are:
Message 36, Message 102
Like the claims of cashless society and tv and credit cards in Revelations, the only place in any of those messages where I call Jesus or God a liar is in Buz's fantasy.
Buz your scholarship seems to be about the same whether you are posting on science, economics, posts here at EvC or theology.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 01-05-2007 12:07 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 12:37 AM jar has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 59 of 303 (374620)
01-05-2007 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
01-05-2007 12:32 AM


Poor form.
Come the fuck on, Jar. Sure, Buz's prophecies are laughable, but you're carrying on in a way that's embarassing yourself and demeaning your station as an admin.
I think you set a pretty poor example with stuff like "Buz totally incompetent as well".
Two admins ought to be able to develop a better way to handle disagreements than this sort of carrying on, and I don't mean to impugne Buz's behavior (although I find his reasoning inadequate for the reasons I've put forth), because he's clearly comporting himself a lot better than you are.
Relax, already. Are you under the impression that there's a magic number of insults that will cause Buz to shrug his shoulders and realize how wrong he's been? (I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 01-05-2007 12:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 61 by jar, posted 01-05-2007 12:44 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 01-05-2007 1:09 AM crashfrog has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 60 of 303 (374624)
01-05-2007 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
01-05-2007 12:37 AM


Re: Poor form.
FYI, Jar is no longer an admin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 01-05-2007 12:37 AM crashfrog has not replied

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