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Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 179 of 364 (380988)
01-29-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Greatest I am
01-28-2007 7:36 PM


Re: The Fifth Candidate
I warmly encourage you not to place limits on yourself or the God you believe in. It may help to re-read John's gospel, particularly Chapter 14:12. I never heard a preacher speak those words from a pulpit, possibly because Jesus was giving us permission to do greater works than he. That would take some power from the church. All truth lies within your Spirit. When we listen we are amazed at what we learn without assistance from other human beings.
Warm regards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Greatest I am, posted 01-28-2007 7:36 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 180 of 364 (381033)
01-29-2007 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Archer Opteryx
01-29-2007 12:49 PM


Re: What are the duties of a God?
Archer Opterix writes:
An extreme reaction and illogical in context.
Ringo is asking you questions. That is not the behavior of someone who is 'clearly not interested in what others have to say.'
I’m aware of Phat’s opening post - that the subject of God should be treated semi-humorously or semi-seriously. I am entirely at fault for taking many of my life’s experiences too seriously. One of which was, without apology, a revelation. Not of God, but of the existence of a spirit form of life, real life which I could not quantify or prove. It was later ”confirmed’ by two other experiences. If any of you have had an exceptional experience you may have wanted to share it with others in the - perhaps mistaken - belief that it will help, or if for no other reason than to give another person permission to acknowledge a similar experience.
My error, my mistake was to assume others following this thread would feel some empathy with my views. Yes, I am offended when someone challenges my sincerity. And why should I be offended? I have no right at all. We are all individuals, each on our own path and in our own learning curve.
So I have been taught an important lesson. Live and let live. Judge not. To thine own self be true, and allow others the right to be true to themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-29-2007 12:49 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 01-29-2007 5:10 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 183 of 364 (381170)
01-30-2007 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by ringo
01-29-2007 5:10 PM


Re: What are the duties of a God?
Ringo writes:
Out of curiosity, who challenged your sincerity?
It's a subtle indirect challenge. There is a useful technique employed, consciously or subconsciously, by some people. If, let’s say, someone takes the floor in a debate and attempts to introduce as succinctly as possible a fairly complex subject . The speaker, with genuine respect for his listeners, will have a reasonable expectation that a listener might ask a question or two regarding the core issue of his subject.
Often there will be one listener who, for questionable reasons, will jump straight in and immediately deflect attention away from the overall context of the subject and nit pick over grammar or semantics. In doing so the nitpicker skilfully draws attention to himself. The speaker is challenged to defend minutiae. The speaker’s core thought becomes lost in the ensuing discussion with the nitpicker.
It’s one of the oldest ”debating’ techniques. It leads to confusion and misrepresentation. It reveals the fallacies of both speaker and listener. The technique is greatly encouraged, in my humble opinion, over internet forums such as this one. All members, including this idiot, are completely incognito. No one can read our body language, tone of voice, or search our eyes for give away signs. We are all safely hidden from the world. We can be anyone we like, say whatever we choose. We can lie through our teeth. We can give vent to our spleens to the world in the privacy of our lonely rooms.
My little excerpt was a feeble attempt to say that the only god I recognize is Creative Love. All living creatures have that essence within their innermost spirit. It cannot be said to exist in any known scientific terms, but the results of creative love are undeniably evident to all who decide to be actively aware.
Thank you for your genuinely sincere question. I decided to throw in the last paragraph for laughs. (Smile darn ya!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 01-29-2007 5:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 01-30-2007 5:29 AM Malachi-II has replied
 Message 187 by ringo, posted 01-30-2007 12:28 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 185 of 364 (381194)
01-30-2007 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Phat
01-30-2007 5:29 AM


Re: What are the duties of a God?
Phat writes:
Malachi--I am impressed! That was one of the clearest posts you have ever written! (Its almost a Post Of The Month!
Gosh! Thanks, Phat. I'll keep trying. I know I am very trying on people's patience.
PS I assume you're referring to the clear description of myself as an Idiot?
Edited by Malachi-II, : An after thought

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 01-30-2007 5:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 186 of 364 (381225)
01-30-2007 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-22-2007 10:06 AM


Proposed new candidate
Candidate withdrawn.
Edited by Malachi-II, : On reflection it would float like a lead balloon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-22-2007 10:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 01-30-2007 12:53 PM Malachi-II has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 189 of 364 (381458)
01-31-2007 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by ringo
01-30-2007 12:28 PM


Ringo writes:
The problem is that we can't always see the "core issue of his subject" if his terminology is unclear. Hence the nitpickery.
The 'problem' is with people who cannot, or do wish, to recognize that nit-picking is intentional fault finding.
Help is available for sufferers of autism.
That's what smilies are for. Do I need to increase my smilification for your benefit? Here's one I don't use very often:
'Little smilies' are indicators, not true revealers of mood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by ringo, posted 01-30-2007 12:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 01-31-2007 7:53 AM Malachi-II has replied
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 01-31-2007 4:23 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 193 of 364 (381528)
01-31-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
01-31-2007 7:53 AM


Re: A Matter Of Belief
PHat writes:
If we as a committee are unable to agree on which God touched us or upon whether the touch was even experienced, we shall have to disassemble and resume our daily activities with this grand question in the universal scheme of things forever unresolved.
I haven't been appointed a member of the committee, but would like to nominate the Spirit (the only word I can come up with) that 'touched' and comforted me as a boy. (I described the experience in Message 36, Philosophy of Ideas). The Spirit that spoke and removed my fear did not identify itself or place any obligation on me whatsoever. It remained anonymous but has never left my mind.
I personally believe that we all have a 'guardian spirit' who is always available when called upon (through prayer?). HOWEVER, that gentle guardian cannot, repeat cannot, interfere in any way with the 'natural' course of events (including evolution). It is not like a pushy parent. I am convinced that it is literally impossible to quantify any metaphysical notion of spiritual reality in terms that could be understood or accepted unanimously by our species.
I can trust my experience. Experience, for me, is the highest authority. Scientists like Richard Dawkins, author of "The God Delusion", atheists, religionists, pantheists, agnostics, or whoever, may cling to their views and beliefs no matter what - and they are perfectly rational and correct in doing so. Equally, so am I. Nothing I can say will change anyone's mind, but if I can be a good example to my wife and children and others in my community that is better than destructive thinking and motivation. The biggest challenge is trying to control the monster Ego that keeps trying to take over my character. Any uplifting change in anyone's life will begin from within the quiet listening to your own mind and heart.
No sermon, just speaking my simple truth.
So, ladies and gentlemen, I suggest we have milked the sacred cow dry and it has collapsed from udder exhaustion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 01-31-2007 7:53 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Quetzal, posted 01-31-2007 4:12 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 195 of 364 (381561)
01-31-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ringo
01-31-2007 4:23 PM


If you want to play with the big kids, get used to your faults being found.
You're talking through your hat! I have admitted many personal faults without them being pointed out. I haven't read all your 3041 pearls of wisdom but suspect you haven't revealed one small thing about your True self. We know your imperfect and doubt if it will ruin your self-image to admit it to yourself. I trust men with the courage to reveal their strengths and weaknesses.
Fault-finding is particularly important in this thread.
Bull shit! Fault finding undermines people's confience. It is a cruel and dangerous practice by those who are themselves insecure.
If we are going to determine which god is real, we have to nitpick at their stories. The real God will be clear and consistent.
Your reasoning sounds mentally unbalanced. Who the hell are you, or we, to determine which God is real? Some of the most terrible human judgements have resulted from pig ignorance, bigotry, prejudice, hatred, avarice and corruption. "Nit-pick their stories?" Pathetic!!
The real God will be clear and consistent.
HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 01-31-2007 4:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by AdminQuetzal, posted 01-31-2007 5:10 PM Malachi-II has replied
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 01-31-2007 5:11 PM Malachi-II has replied
 Message 200 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 7:27 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 201 of 364 (381669)
02-01-2007 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by AdminQuetzal
01-31-2007 5:10 PM


Re: Guidelines Warning
My sincere apologies to all concerned. Anonymity does not ease embarrassment.
It is no one else’s fault that I lose my temper from pure frustration in attempting, and failing, to articulate experiences and perceptions that run completely counter to accepted wisdom, traditional practices and beliefs. My fault in this instance was in trying to communicate to others through an international forum where there are many conflicting agendas. That is not a complaint, rather a simple, perhaps mistaken, personal observation.
All the topics are interesting and deserving of due attention and respect. Particularly, in view of my ”revelations’, the topic “Will the real God please stand up.” caught my attention.
My first entry did not go far enough to explain why ”I’ (the so-called god I was trying to introduce) could not stand. My experience informed me that A) god does not seem to conform to most portrayed images B) god was not author of any religion or religious belief C) god cannot be isolated from any aspect of the known, and as yet unknown, universe(s) D) by definition of ”C’ god is the essence of all and everything, including every atom and sub-atomic particle known to science.
So, if I have been correctly informed, we are all gods in the process of becoming. Why? Because our minds have for millennia perceived that to be the case and have made every effort to quantify our perceptions. Most of our species (including this fool) go to great lengths to deny the call of our innermost perception. The very idea of the responsibility involved in such a notion has more than once driven me to drink and consider suicide. But, fool that I am, I forgot that my experience clearly did NOT impose any obligation whatsoever upon my flawed mortal being. It did not demand worship. Rather encouraged ”listening to’ in the quiet of my soul (spirit). But, of course, the world of our creation is awash with attractive and often destructive distractions.
In short, I am an even greater fool for attempting to take responsibility for things that are far, far beyond my wildest dreams of maturity.
Carl Rogers wrote, “It is who we are and not what we know that facilitates the growth of another.” Thank you for that gem of wisdom, Mr Rogers.
If I am man enough, wise enough, to remember that who I am (in terms of loving and caring for those nearest and dearest, not ignoring others who cross my path) will do more to facilitate their growth, then perhaps that is as close as I can possibly get to being like god.
The only proof I can offer to substantiate my spiritual experience is simple. Compare my personal posts with “Who Am I” and the excerpt of “The Weeping Redwood Tree.” They did not come from the same source (and believe me when I say that I am not schizoid).
If anyone would care to discuss this post with me would you please email me at the address provided with my details. The forum is great, but does tend to become fragmented. No fault of anyone! So many opinions clambering to be heard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by AdminQuetzal, posted 01-31-2007 5:10 PM AdminQuetzal has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 202 of 364 (381671)
02-01-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by kuresu
01-31-2007 7:27 PM


so, what do you have to hide from nit-picking?
Nothing at all. Please see Message 201.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 7:27 PM kuresu has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 203 of 364 (381674)
02-01-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by ringo
01-31-2007 5:11 PM


Ringo writes:
If you think the real God will be unclear or inconsistent, please feel free to explain why. Don't just stand on your Shift key.
My response was referred to in my little excerpt "The Weeping Redwood Tree" in which God denies he is perfect, according to our understanding of the word. I was implying that perhaps our collective understanding of the real God is unclear and inconsistent.
Of course anyone can rightfully argue that my allegory is fictional nonsense. They would not be wrong in thinking that. It could also be argued that another universe was created, like those of Tolkien, and others. But I hasten to deny any resemblance to REAL writers. I'm simply drawing a feeble simile.
Edited by Malachi-II, : Apology withdrawn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 01-31-2007 5:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 02-01-2007 4:59 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 204 of 364 (381681)
02-01-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Quetzal
01-31-2007 4:12 PM


Re: Objection!
Quetzal writes:
I strenuously object to the inclusion of candidate Spirit into these proceedings. The Christian God is already under consideration
Duly noted with respect. My apologies for brevity. I should have explained that my 'Spirit' is not affiliated with nor confined to any religion. It is my perception that all religions serve specific cultures and are all related to the same source. It is not God's fault that we kill others who do not share the same belief.
Please read message 201 for further clarification. Even that message will fail to satisfy our amazing questioning minds. Thank God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Quetzal, posted 01-31-2007 4:12 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 206 of 364 (381822)
02-02-2007 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by ringo
02-01-2007 4:59 PM


Ringo writes:
The premise of this topic is that God is sitting right here among us. I think it's reasonable to assume that He would have powers of communication to present His case in a clear and consistent fashion.
So far, none of the candidates has succeeded in doing that.
So we're left with the dilemma: Do we need to "hire" one of the candidates at all? If none of the candidates can convince us that he is indispensable to the requirements of our organization, why not cut costs and leave the position vacant?
I agree with your premise and the reasonableness of your assumption that He would have powers to communicate . . . in a clear and consistent fashion.
I dare not to attempt to speak for God, but will argue your premise and assumption on His behalf. Imagine that God is ”sitting right here among us’. Perhaps He is hampered by the terminology we use in visualizing and describing Him.
Firstly, He may be hard pressed to accommodate the infinite images humans have invented in every religion to help personalize Him. Secondly, He might realize that he’s in a no win situation because everyone around the table may not agree with his clarity or consistency. Let us say that God is sitting at the table. He knows that every committee member has a different deeply held religious belief or none at all.
In that event God might conclude that, since He is essentially the essence of the universe and beyond, He could not be more visible. Yet He is not! God’s dilemma would be: how can he appear to be recognized by one person occupying a chair at the table - in accordance with that person’s preconceived notions - and risk not being recognized by others at the table or causing even greater confusion and disruption. What to do? Would He decide to leave us sort ourselves out?
On the point of God communicating in a clear and consistent fashion. My allegory begins with a very distressed ancient asking why God will not answer him. God replied, “Why do you not listen?” (A point you yourself made in an earlier post in another topic I came across) Let us assume that God has never been silent, unclear or inconsistent on any issue. What then?
I submit that A) we try listening to God without knowing how to listen, B) God cannot impose His will because Creative Love could not survive (as His has done for more than 16 billion light years or so) if it was controlled. God might say, “Once Life began it was instantly beyond my control. I could not withdraw freewill when it was abused. Creative Love cannot be controlled or controlling, otherwise it could not be eternal. My creation is perfect only in the sense that it is ever changing, constantly evolving for the original purpose of perpetuating my love of Life.”
That seemed to be suggesting that God was entirely dispensable until I thought more deeply about the meaning. Is it possible that God needs us more than we need Him? Does he depend upon us to continue the process of evolution through our individual and collective forces of intelligent creative love? He knows perfectly well that we now possess the power to destroy our mother Earth, yet He cannot interfere if we used our powers of destruction. Knowing how flawed we are, why does He place such faith in Us? My simple conclusion is that He knows us far better than we know ourselves. He knows his original purpose succeeded until now and will continue to self-perpetuate.
So we come to your final question: “Why not cut costs and leave the position (of God) vacant?
I quote from Richard Dawkins’ “The God Delusion”, page 155: “Time and again, my theologian friends returned to the point that there had to be a reason why there is something rather than nothing. There must have been a first cause of everything, and we might as well give it the name of God. Yes, I said, but it must have been simple and therefore, whatever else we call it, God is not an appropriate name (unless we very explicitly divest it of all the baggage that the word ”God’ carries in the minds of most religious believers). The first cause that we seek must have been the simple basis for a self-bootstrapping crane which eventually raised the world as we know it into its present complex existence.”
Anyone who reads Dawkins will know that he strongly disapproves of religions (and explains his reasoning clearly and consistently). I personally abandoned my ”religious beliefs’ many decades ago, but found Dawkins’ Chapter on “Why there almost certainly in no God” and many of his further conclusions deeply depressing. Despite the undeniable breadth of Dawkins’ analytical mind and his depth of knowledge, I wonder if he might possibly have fallen into a trap laid by himself.
Dawkins unambiguously argues that the first cause that we seek must have been the simple basis for a self-bootstrapping crane which eventually raised the world as we know it into its present complex existence. I suggest that the simple self-bootstrapping crane is none other than a simple act of Divine Creative Love.
Let’s test it for ourselves, somewhat simplistically for lack of space here. I can personally recall verifiable instances when I actually created an ongoing relationship (after many attempts) with my wife through simply learning how to love her. I can also produce firm evidence of objects I produced with my own hands through a desire to create the object. I can equally, and painfully, recall far too many instances when I was destructive because of the lack of love. How many people reading this can identify with my simplistic examples?
There is nothing ”divine’ about anything in my life - other than a perception of a force that seems to fill me with delight when I perform the simplest act of kindness and consideration, rather than any act of hatred and destruction.
Since I often fail to practice what I preach, I humbly vacate your table.
© 2007, Malachi-II

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 02-01-2007 4:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-02-2007 8:08 AM Malachi-II has replied
 Message 212 by ringo, posted 02-02-2007 12:06 PM Malachi-II has not replied
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 02-02-2007 12:16 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 209 of 364 (381851)
02-02-2007 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by kuresu
01-31-2007 7:27 PM


Question. Always Question.
I frequently ask direct questions after responding to posts. My questions are usually ignored, or met with an unrelated question. Have you had similar experience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by kuresu, posted 01-31-2007 7:27 PM kuresu has not replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 210 of 364 (381854)
02-02-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Archer Opteryx
02-02-2007 8:08 AM


I don't see anything here to stop God from sending a fax if a person wants one. Thoughts?
Nor can I! Please let the rest of the world know if you receive a fax. Be warned, however, you'll have to prove it was sent by God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-02-2007 8:08 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-02-2007 3:22 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
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