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Author Topic:   Free will in Heaven
nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 16 of 30 (362866)
11-09-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
11-09-2006 7:06 AM


Re: Make Room For Daddy
Sometimes, its wise to listen to Daddy....especially if He knows the territory and we don't.
Now can you explain that to Dubya

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 Message 11 by Phat, posted 11-09-2006 7:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 30 (362870)
11-09-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
11-09-2006 7:06 AM


Re: Make Room For Daddy
If you are on a hike and you are unsure of the territory, don't you defer your right to guide yourself to the leader who knows where he/she is going?
Only up to a point. You still must test the Guide and Map against the Territory.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 30 (363044)
11-10-2006 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ramoss
11-09-2006 9:26 AM


Re: Satan and free will.
ramoss writes:
If being in God's presense is so convincing, even for an irrational being, why would Satan, and a full 1/3 of the angels rebel? What is wrong with Heaven they decided to leave it?
I dunno. Maybe...
  • They had to do things Gods way or take the highway. So they chose the highway? What was it in them (and in us) that seeks to find new ways to do things? Is it an altruistic emotion or is it a greedy self vindicating emotion?
  • Perhaps God foreknew that Satan would have to rebel...if for no other reason than to personify what God was not. In the human realm, we often rebel against bosses who are not the brightest bulbs in the room. In Gods case, however, God was and is the brightest.
  • What always trips people up in these debates is the idea that for God to allow us freewill is an honorable action. How is the right to make a wrong decision honorable? (Assuming, of course, that there is only one right decision among a choice of options)

  • This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 19 of 30 (363045)
    11-10-2006 9:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by jar
    11-09-2006 10:49 AM


    Re: Make Room For Daddy
    jar writes:
    You still must test the Guide and Map against the Territory.
    Using your analogy, I am assuming that the Guide is God, the map is the Bible (or any other spiritual book, perhaps?) and the territory in this thread is Heaven.
  • In order to test the Guide I would have to allow myself to question my belief. While healthy, how am I going to question an absolute without dismissing the absolute and going with my own reasoning? And is this not what leads to rebellion?
  • It is said that people often construct God in their own minds as to their own image. (imagination) How will I know if the God I worship is the real McCoy? (Aside from God drawing me)
  • What sense does it make to do my best if by losing God I become an independant thinker? Is'nt that the whole root of rebellion anyway?
    Edited by Phat, : edit

  • This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 20 of 30 (363050)
    11-10-2006 10:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
    11-10-2006 9:46 AM


    Re: Satan and free will.
    Phat writes:
    Maybe... They had to do things Gods way or take the highway. So they chose the highway?
    Why do you assume that God wants us to be subservient little puppies instead of "taking the highway"? I find it odd that you think the Ultimate Boss wants to be unchallenged.
    How is the right to make a wrong decision honorable?
    Ever hear of democracy?
    (Assuming, of course, that there is only one right decision among a choice of options)
    Why would you make that assumption? Is God so limited that He can have only one fixed "plan"?

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    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 21 of 30 (363053)
    11-10-2006 11:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
    11-10-2006 9:54 AM


    Re: Make Room For Daddy
    In order to test the Guide I would have to allow myself to question my belief. While healthy, how am I going to question an absolute without dismissing the absolute and going with my own reasoning? And is this not what leads to rebellion?
    Whole bunch of questions rolled into one. Let's take them individually.
    In order to test the Guide I would have to allow myself to question my belief.
    Of course.
    While healthy, how am I going to question an absolute without dismissing the absolute and going with my own reasoning?
    That would depend on whether the alleged absolute stood up to examination.
    And is this not what leads to rebellion?
    No, of course not. Rebellion happens when the authority is found wanting.
    It is said that people often construct God in their own minds as to their own image. (imagination) How will I know if the God I worship is the real McCoy? (Aside from God drawing me)
    You can't. In particular the idea that "God drawing me" adds any validity is totally false. Those who are the victims of cons are drawn in. In fact the BEST cons are those where the sucker feels the most comfortable.
    What sense does it make to do my best if by losing God I become an independant thinker?
    By losing, preferably throwing away God you have the opportunity to find GOD. Hopefully then you will become an independant thinker. Why do you think GOD gave you the capacity to think if not for you to use it?
    Is'nt that the whole root of rebellion anyway?
    No, of course not. That though is the Great Lie told by many clergy to keep the folk from seeing the man behind the curtain.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 22 of 30 (363100)
    11-10-2006 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by jar
    11-07-2006 11:10 AM


    The need for Free Will versus humility
    Vacate writes:
    When God created man he allowed for free will. I understand the idea behind this being God did not want “robots” that simply worship, but humans who worship because they choose to do so. The consequences of this is that humanity suffered The Fall and introduced sin. (This may be a poor generalization, but I believe the idea to be essentially correct)
    So to begin with, we as Christians need to come to terms with what it is that God expects of us.
    It makes some sense to me that to worship God means that we stive to do our best each and every day in our relationships with others. This would go nicely in line with The Greatest Commandment. It also makes sense that if I don't worry about eternity and Heaven since I cannot possibly know the expectations and dynamics of such concepts but, rather..concentrate on my daily walk it is the best and noblest thing I can do.
    Vacate writes:
    I would like to know if there is information in the Bible that refers in some detail about this.
    Phat writes:
    And that is a matter of interpretation.
    If not, how would a Christian answer this? (I realize asking about Heaven is like asking what biology is like on a distant planet, I am more interested in opinions)
    And so here we are!
    Jar writes:
    Satan's problem was that he would not bow down to and worship man as God demanded.
    Well, that flows nicely with much of the theological precepts that I had been taught. Namely,
    If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
    ”Phillipians 2:1-4
    Does it not logically flow, then, that if we are to consider others better than ourselves that we should consider God in the same way?
    Ringo writes:
    Is God so limited that He can have only one fixed "plan"?
    Of course not. But the summation of everything God intends
    or foreknows is in fact the best plan, wouldnt you think?

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 23 of 30 (363108)
    11-10-2006 5:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
    11-10-2006 3:46 PM


    Re: The need for Free Will versus humility
    Phat writes:
    Is God so limited that He can have only one fixed "plan"?
    Of course not. But the summation of everything God intends
    or foreknows is in fact the best plan, wouldnt you think?
    What do we know about "the summation of everything God intends or foreknows"?
    Part of the reason we have "free will" is because we don't precisely know what His will is. We can only surmise that He wants what's best for us. Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it?

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Phat, posted 11-10-2006 3:46 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by Phat, posted 11-11-2006 8:04 AM ringo has replied
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 11-11-2006 3:24 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 24 of 30 (363189)
    11-11-2006 8:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
    11-10-2006 5:17 PM


    Re: The need for Free Will versus humility
    Ringo writes:
    Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it?
    We exist to please Him rather than He existing to please us. The question is also this:
  • Does God plan on dealing with freewill humans who wish to have a democracy with Him?
    I will agree with you on only one basic point.
    Ringo writes:
    What do we know about "the summation of everything God intends or foreknows"?
    And the answer is that we do not collectively know.

  • This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 25 of 30 (363206)
    11-11-2006 11:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
    11-11-2006 8:04 AM


    Re: The need for Free Will versus humility
    Phat writes:
    We exist to please Him rather than He existing to please us.
    Where's your humility?
    What can you do to "please" God that He could't do a billion billion times better Himself?
    Do children exist to please their parents? Or do parents have a responsibility to their children?
    The question is also this: Does God plan on dealing with freewill humans who wish to have a democracy with Him?
    As I have said, I don't know what God's "plans" are and neither do you (though you have a penchant for asserting them ).
    I asked you: Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it? In what way would it be "heaven" if it wasn't designed to please us?
    I will agree with you on only one basic point.
    Ringo writes: What do we know about "the summation of everything God intends or foreknows"?
    And the answer is that we do not collectively know.
    Nor do we individually know. We can only surmise what makes sense to us.
    And heaven as a giant prison camp doesn't make sense.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 26 of 30 (363243)
    11-11-2006 3:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
    11-10-2006 5:17 PM


    Re: The need for Free Will versus humility
    Ringo writes:
    Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it?
    I thought about this, and I suppose that were it not for humans there would be no need for Heaven,no?
    But by the same logic, we could assert that God created the entire universe for us, could'nt we?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by ringo, posted 11-10-2006 5:17 PM ringo has replied

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 27 of 30 (363266)
    11-11-2006 5:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
    11-11-2006 3:24 PM


    Re: The need for Free Will versus humility
    Phat writes:
    Ringo writes: Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it?
    I thought about this, and I suppose that were it not for humans there would be no need for Heaven,no?
    That's what I'm saying - discounting the ducks and the dingoes.
    Jesus said:
    quote:
    I go to prepare a place for you.
    and Larry Gatlin said:
    quote:
    Will they have Mogen David in heaven, Sweet Jesus
    If they don't, who the hell wants to go.
    If He isn't stocking the wine cellar, how can His preparations be "for us"?
    But by the same logic, we could assert that God created the entire universe for us, could'nt we?
    God created us to fit into the universe.
    How would we adapt to a place where we are expected to surrender our free will?
    Like prisoners always do?
    Could Satan's fall (escape) from heaven be a presage of our own?

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 5952 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 28 of 30 (363282)
    11-11-2006 7:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Vacate
    11-07-2006 6:36 AM


    an opinion
    I've never thought about this too much, but apparently many people have. Seems like most christians believe we will still have free will in heaven.
    But then you get all these problems about why?, and what for?. I am determined that God makes all things with a purpose, so if something is there, we must need it. When it comes to this, I am forced to think about things which we may need on earth, and things which we may need in heaven. Like memory, and reasoning. AND, a body!
    The bible DOES say that we will receive our bodies back at the end of time, so......will we need them? Will we need to eat, will we need to walk, or to sleep? Or will arms and legs, mouths and brains, just be rendered obsolete? I mean, they may still be there technically, but why? and what for?
    Does anyone think that free will could be looked at this way? As something we have, but don't need? Or would this just make it nonexistant?
    Can we still have a choice, if there is nothing left to chose?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Vacate, posted 11-07-2006 6:36 AM Vacate has replied

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    Greatest I am
    Member (Idle past 273 days)
    Posts: 1676
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 29 of 30 (381272)
    01-30-2007 1:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
    11-07-2006 6:47 AM


    God created Satan to follow his nature
    Phat
    My definition of Satan is that that is just a name for literary purposes to encompass the evil ideas and notions that we have.
    For our purposes here we can still use that name.
    God created Satan for a reason. God has shown where He uses Satan to accomplish certain ends. This Satan then is good in the hands of God.
    Therefore Satan is good.
    This is in keeping with the idea that everything that God has made is Perfect, even Satan.
    After death we become part of the Godhead. In full contact with all the knowledge that God possesses. We will have free will and obviously use it correctly.
    Regards
    DL

    This message is a reply to:
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    Vacate
    Member (Idle past 4600 days)
    Posts: 565
    Joined: 10-01-2006


    Message 30 of 30 (381428)
    01-30-2007 10:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by anastasia
    11-11-2006 7:07 PM


    Re: an opinion
    I can see the what you are saying anastasia but I still come back to the question of the end of the road. Free will is what makes me ... me, my choices for good or bad, without this the robot analogy works quite well. What difference is there in heaven?
    Does anyone think that free will could be looked at this way? As something we have, but don't need?
    I may not need to eat, sleep, or walk as these are simply conditions of my biology. In terms of a spirit, the only thing that remains is my free will or my ability to be me. If heaven is a place where there is nothing left to choose, then how does Satan fit in to the scheme of things? He made a choice that was counter to Gods will.

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