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Author Topic:   Glenn Morton hypothesis: The Flood could ONLY have happened 5 million+ years ago
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 130 (392389)
03-30-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by mpb1
03-30-2007 9:37 PM


Re: The Flood
What if God flooded that "small world" with a Flood like the one that wiped out New Orleans? Just what if???
What small world?
I doubt there'll be whole lot of evidence around to prove that happened five thousand to five million years from now. Right? So couldn't it have been possible?
Of course there would be evidence left. There would be geological evidence, biological evidence, genetic evidence.
The point is that unless God is a lying trickster there has never been a flood as described in the Bible.
Certainly it is possible that God is a liar and just faked all the evidence to fool us.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by mpb1, posted 03-30-2007 9:37 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by mpb1, posted 03-30-2007 9:56 PM jar has replied
 Message 101 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 1:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 130 (392394)
03-30-2007 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by mpb1
03-30-2007 9:56 PM


Re: The Flood
Unless there are reputable field geologists who have studied every aspect of the region and concluded that the biblical Flood COULD have happened - despite what you and others call a lack of evidence - then there's not much I can say is there?
It is NOT simply a lack of evidence. That implies that it might be there but no one has seen it yet. It is that evidence that MUST be there if the Biblical Flood were real is not there.
When you do an experiment one key thing is making predictions.
If the flood happened we would see certain things.
We look for those things.
They are not there.
That is Positive evidence that the flood did not happen.
The idea of a Biblical Flood is refuted.
Young earth creationists say there is evidence to support the biblical Flood, but at this moment I don't even know where else one could find supporting evidence for the Flood.
Yes they do, but not ONE, not a single one, of there alleged evidences stands up to examination. Young Earth Creationists are simply wrong.
If not, then we Christians may end up being self-deluded after all. Who knows
What do you mean "we Christians?"
It is not Christians that support the myth of the Biblical Flood but only the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by mpb1, posted 03-30-2007 9:56 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 130 (392600)
04-01-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by grmorton
04-01-2007 1:38 PM


Re: The Flood
But, your dogmatism that there is no Biblical flood is based upon
1. the assumption that the young-earth/global flood interpretation of scripture is the only way that scripture can be interpreted.
2. that the anthropologically universal flood occured when the young-earthers say it did--<6000 age'.
Not at all. I simply take what is written in the Bible. The Bible story says it was a world-wide flood.
The Bible story says it was during the lifespan of a specific individual.
The Bible story says that all life on earth except that which was on one specific boat died.
Now if you approach it as you have laid out so far, it seems to me that all you have done is throw out everything in the Bible story.
Okay.
I don't have a problem with what you are doing.
Enjoy.
But it seems to be totally unrelated to the Bible story anyway.
As to your three assertions of what you think I think, well, you be wrong on all three of them. LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 1:38 PM grmorton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 3:05 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 130 (392604)
04-01-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by mpb1
04-01-2007 2:00 PM


Re: The Flood
As Jesse pointed out, non-Christians say the story was derived from another story.
Not just non-Christians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 2:00 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 2:33 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 130 (392607)
04-01-2007 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by mpb1
04-01-2007 2:33 PM


Re: The Flood
I was wondering about that jar...
Are you a Christian?
Yes I am a Christian. You can read some of my belief statements in Columnists Corner.
I know you used the label, "the Christian Cult of Ignorance," so I wasn't sure. If you are a Christian, are you saying that those who believe Genesis 1-11 is meant to be understood literally are ignorant?
Yes, that is kinda what I am saying. At best they are ignorant. There are also many who are liars and a few who are simply deluded.
If so, I guess that means you believe those who read those chapters as allegory are much wiser?
Well, I would not use the term wiser. I would say more honest.
Because of the literal, historical, biographical nature of the text, I believe it is intellectually dishonest to read the text as anything but literal.
If what you say is true, then you also must admit that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 describe two different Gods and that the tales are mutually exclusive. If one is true then the other is false.
Edited by jar, : -d +s

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 2:33 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 2:53 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 130 (392615)
04-01-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by grmorton
04-01-2007 3:05 PM


Re: The Flood
Oh, now the illogic here can be illustrated by rejecting the burning of Rome because historical accounts say that it occurred during the life time of a specific person--Nero, or that we can reject the Trojan war which occurred in preliterate times, because it is said to have occured during the life of Helen.
Nonsense Glenn.
What I reject is the incorrect stories.
Glenn, I have no problem with you interpreting the story to be a local flood. There were many such floods in history. But once it gets interpreted as a localized flood as opposed to a world-wide flood, I see no point in going any further.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 3:05 PM grmorton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 4:58 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 130 (392658)
04-01-2007 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by grmorton
04-01-2007 4:58 PM


Re: The Flood
Here we have to disagree. If we can't discuss the meaning of the Hebrew words, as opposed to the badly chosen English words used in the translation, then clearly there is no point of going further and we are at an impasse.
Glenn I simply don't understand what you seem upset about. There is little to discuss because I have no problem if you define the area to be localized. If you want to take one of the definitions that implies something other than the whole world, I have no reason to argue. I can live with those definitions.
Such a regional or local flood could happen anywhere at anytime. So there is not even any reason to go back more than say, thirty years ago, to find a source for the Biblical Flood.
I did not argue with your interpretations because I don't disagree with what you said.
But as I also said, the exercise seems utterly pointless.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 4:58 PM grmorton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 6:01 PM jar has not replied
 Message 114 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 8:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 130 (392709)
04-01-2007 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by grmorton
04-01-2007 8:01 PM


Re: The Flood
Clearly you think the story is false, but you can't claim it is false without noting that the statements in the story don't match observation.
Yup. The statements in the story do not match observation. Period.
The story is simply absurd.
No riverine flood could last a full year and land something floating on the water's surface upon a mountain.
Damn right. In fact it is pretty hard to imagine ANY scenario that would have a local flood that lasts a year and places an Ark on a mountain.
So now there's yet another part of the story you need to tap dance around and explain.
Sorry Glenn, good luck but I still have to wonder why?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 8:01 PM grmorton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 11:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 117 of 130 (392730)
04-01-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by grmorton
04-01-2007 11:17 PM


Re: The Flood
Then you haven't been paying much attention to what I am suggesting. The Mediterranean flood can last a year and place an ark upon a mountain--as the basin fills in, the ark lands on the shore 10-15000 feet higher than where it started.
Okay Glenn. Have a good day.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by grmorton, posted 04-01-2007 11:17 PM grmorton has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 130 (392911)
04-02-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by grmorton
04-02-2007 8:44 PM


Re: It would appear the Mediterranean basin didn't flood all at once.
So, is "In beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth" a true or false statement? [please answer this question, most people I ask this of refuse to answer it]
Is it that they refuse to answer it or simply cannot answer it?
For example, while I believe that GOD created the heavens and the earth, I also must in all honesty admit that I might be wrong.
If Jehovah isn't the real creator, why would we listen to his morality?
Well, Jehovah is NOT GOD but rather a sum of the characterizations of the Gods that are found in the Bible. Jehovah is a human construct, an attempt at representing the reality in terms that a human can relate to. We listen to the morality of the lessons if when tested against reality, they work.
Do you believe it is good policy to believe that the morality found in utterly false stories is something that should be followed?
Absolutely.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by grmorton, posted 04-02-2007 8:44 PM grmorton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by grmorton, posted 04-02-2007 10:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 130 (392939)
04-02-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by grmorton
04-02-2007 10:08 PM


Re: It would appear the Mediterranean basin didn't flood all at once.
So, how do you go about testing competing claims by competing gods?
Well any Gods are just a human construct, an attempt to represent something that really can't be represented in terms that humans so far can understand. You test such claims through reason, evidence and logic.
And you made this concept up, exactly when?
Again, I cannot claim that it is something I made up, but rather the sum of many discussions with many people over many years. I'd say it became pretty much fully developed during sacred studies classes back in the late 50s.
At least you answered the question about if it is good policy to believe the morality found in utterly false stories. I can't take your theology very seriously after you answered in the affirmative, because, to answer that in the afirmative, displays immense gullibility to any falsehood at all.
How so? If I read the story of the Pied Piper, can I not learn a moral lesson from it even though it is totally false and made up?
When Jesus spoke about getting his ass in a crack on the sabbath, is the lesson lessened if it did not really happen?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by grmorton, posted 04-02-2007 10:08 PM grmorton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by grmorton, posted 04-03-2007 6:55 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 130 (393036)
04-03-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by grmorton
04-03-2007 6:55 AM


Re: It would appear the Mediterranean basin didn't flood all at once.
If that is the case, then religion is not real and not worth even claiming to be a Christian, Buddhist, Taoist etc.
Of course religions are real, just as a Map is real. But Religions and the Gods found in those religions are just the Map, not the Territory. The Christian God is not GOD, but rather only a flawed representation created by man of the Reality.
As to testing this, exactly what experiment can one possibly advance to prove that god is just a human construct? Logically speaking, that is certainly a possibility and may be correct, but evidence???? I can think of none.
I said Gods, not GOD. Frankly Glenn, all that humans can know are human constructs. The Gods that are in the Bible are not GOD, but just human created cartoons.
When an idea is 'fully developed' one can usually shower arguments and evidence to support the concept. Short, non-explanatory posts do not, in my mind, constitute 'fully developed'.
Okay. Your problem. Not mine.
And on your Aesop Tale. Of course we should earn from the story, and learn morality. Unfortunately you show that just as with the Bible and with Christianity, you failed to understand and instead grabbed the worst possible interpretation.
I'm glad that you brought it up though because it is a great example of how morality lessons can be misused.
The lesson that should be learned from the story is that lying carries consequences and that one should tell the truth.
Thanks for including it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by grmorton, posted 04-03-2007 6:55 AM grmorton has not replied

  
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