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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 331 (398635)
05-01-2007 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
05-01-2007 6:28 PM


Re: Hostility and judgementalism
Thats quite an accusation! Do you honestly think that so many Christians would willfully lie?
Sure they do. It is the easy answer. They lie mostwise to theyselves and do it so much that it jess comes natural to 'em.
You yourself said "It is good to have my beliefs challenged, but I get irritated at times when I actually have to think!".
You have said that I make you uncomfortable, that you fear moving outside your comfort zone.
Christianity isn't easy.
The Gospel the Christian Cult of Ignorance sells is comforting and easy, jess believe what they say and don't question it and you WILL BE SAVED!
On the otherhand, I think the Gospel is totally different.
I think the Gospel is that GOD tells us it's okay to fail, but it is not okay not to try.
Several times you and Buz and Rob and Iano and Faith and others have commented that I don't talk about my relationship with GOD.
Such Testifying is a big part of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. Oh, it might make folk feel good, or even raise a joyful sound, but what does it mean?
How is it tested?
If so, this world is in a bigger spiritual war than I thought!
And it's not a Spiritual War. It is just plain laziness and ignorance. Nothing more. It is just folk trying to take the easy way, finding it easier to tell others than to actually do.
There's no war, simply apathy.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 05-01-2007 6:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 05-02-2007 3:03 AM jar has replied
 Message 114 by iano, posted 05-02-2007 9:35 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 331 (398723)
05-02-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
05-02-2007 3:03 AM


Re: Jars Christian Cult Of Ignorance
What are the exact defining qualities of your criteria to be labeled as part of the Cult Of Ignorance? Do you include entire denominations in this cult? (Such as the Assemblies Of God?)
There can be exceptions in any group so I would not define it by label or denomination.
Instead, the defining characteristic would be pretty many of the things listed in the belief statement you quoted. A belief that the Bible is historically and scientifically 100% factual would be one such characteristic. The belief that if you can conceive of a solution to problems then the problems don't exist is another. Any YEC or Biblical Creationist would fall into the group as would anyone who believes the Biblical Flood or Exodus happened as described in the Bible.
I would exclude little children as members even if in that environment because there is always the hope that they will learn.
The HEART of the Christian Cult of Ignorance is not the followers though but the leaders, the Pastors and Ministers and Televangelists and those like AIG, and Discovery Institute and ICR that promote and enable the Cult of Ignorance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 05-02-2007 3:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 117 of 331 (398728)
05-02-2007 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by iano
05-02-2007 9:35 AM


Re: Hostility and judgementalism
It means that you speak of what you know. When you don't know it you can't speak of it. This Gospel of Ignorance you refer to is commonly called the Gospel of Grace (as opposed to your Gospel of Works)
Which simply shows that you have ignored what I have said, so I will repeat it one more time.
Mankind is forgiven. It is a done deal. No one is born damned. You cannot earn salvation because it is freely given to all.
The Gospel is really very simple.
GOD says that it is okay to fail, but it is not okay to not try.
If I recall correctly the comments (from Faith and myself at least) had to do with our view about you not having a relationship with God to speak of. Which is why you don't speak of it.
And you know that how? You know I don't have a relationship with GOD because I don't talk about it because if I had a relationship with GOD I would talk about it?
Too funny for words.
I ask once again, to those who claim to know GOD, "How do you know it is GOD?"
It was abundantly clear from our many conversations that the relationship you have going is not with God himself but with his Law. In other words: if you try your damndest to keep Gods law then somehow or other you will be on the right side of God come the time when such things are counted. Your most oft referred to text: Matthew 25's sheep n' goats" was always interpreted in this light. "If at first you don't succeed then try, try and try again - and maybe God'll pleased."
Again, that simply shows that you have either not read or not comprehended what I have said, so I will try again.
The Garden of Eden story is one of the ascent of Man. In the story, Man is given the Knowledge of Good and Evil, a great gift. But the gift comes with a charge, that we are expected to try to do what is right, and to try not to do what is wrong.
It is not a matter of trying to please GOD, it is what we are charged to try to do here, now, in this life, because it is the best way to live.
We can't do anything for GOD.
Come on, She created the whole universe. What the hell can we do for someone who can create all that is, seen and unseen?
All that we can do is try to do for others, for the world we live in, for plants and animals the environment, for friends and enemies and for children and knowledge.
All we can do is try to do our best, honestly try to evaluate our behavior, honestly acknowledge when we do wrong, try to make amends when we do screw up and try to do better in the future. That really is all that we can do.
It really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by iano, posted 05-02-2007 9:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 05-02-2007 11:59 AM jar has replied
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 2:15 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 331 (398750)
05-02-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Hyroglyphx
05-02-2007 12:44 PM


Re: Logical fallacies
From your post it seems I have once again failed to make my position clear.
Rabbinical scholars have been pouring over various books of the Tanakh for thousands of years. We aren't merely talking about the Pentateuch, but also the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, etc. From the time of Jesus, these were all very well known to the common Jew and were identified as God-given Scripture. About the only thing different is that it wasn't called "the Bible." So, really, what exactly are we quibbling about?
Again, the statment Phat quoted said that the term Scripture specifically referred to the "Bible".
That is just false.
Scripture is far broader than that and many books now included in the Bible (whichever canon you go by) had not even been written when Timothy and Corinthians were written.
I happen to accept that All Scripture is valuable for learning, including Pogo and Alice Through the Looking Glass.
You've made it clear that you believe that God is unknowable. If God is unknowable then you couldn't possibly know, by your own admission, that some text could be inspired. How can you know what is inspired of God, and yet, have God be unknowable? That's logically unsound.
And once again I will repeat what I have said in the past.
The only way I can make such judgments is by testing it against the world I live in.
And finally, you reject the notion that Scripture has any authority, or if it does, it is no more grand than a comic book. Can't determine whether it was God or man.
No, I do not reject scripture, I reject your small definition of what scripture is.
That inevitably leads me wonder why you believe in God at all. There is no avenue in which to even formulate a belief in God. What exactly has lead you to believe then? It appears to me that we have yet another Mr. Potato Head God that someone has fashioned from their mind, taking pieces of some philosophical notion, and another piece from some other theological notion, and jumbling it up into some idol.
All we can ever know are those gods we create, at least while we are alive.
If its unimportant, then why go out of your way to correct those that do believe what is spoken of Him in the gospels, the writings of the prophets, or the epistles? Its obvious that it is of some consequence to you. Without personal revelation or the authority of the Scriptures, what basis do you have to even believe in Jesus? Aren't your notions of Jesus directly attributed to the Scriptures themselves?
Yes, all Scripture, including Pogo and Alice and archy and mehitabel.
Edited by jar, : apallin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-02-2007 12:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 331 (398764)
05-02-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by iano
05-02-2007 11:59 AM


Re: Hostility and judgementalism
I know the elements of your works based 'gospel' already Jar. I was just pointing out what Faith and me actually have said regarding your relationship. Not what you would have it that we said.
Simply asserting such nonsense is hardly refutation.
I have tried (perhaps unsuccessfully) to outline the reasoning behind my beliefs.
I do NOT have a works based belief system in my humble opinion.
And as to salvation?
In the words of a Priest and very good friend, "Hell? Oh hell, fugitaboutit!"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 05-02-2007 11:59 AM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 331 (398969)
05-03-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
05-02-2007 4:03 PM


Re: Jars Christian Cult Of Ignorance
How can the Bible be misrepresented? What standard is used to represent it?
The Bible can be misrepresented in many ways. One that we see here all the time is by selective quotemining. The standard that must be used to judge the Bible is context, the world we live in and reason.
if one has a room full of books, how do humans determine the ones they trust?
You test them against the world we live in and reason.
can't a belief be based on a consensus?
Sure, many are. And they are still wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 05-02-2007 4:03 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by truthlover, posted 05-03-2007 2:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 331 (399036)
05-03-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by truthlover
05-03-2007 2:04 PM


Re: Jars Christian Cult Of Ignorance
Other than the three things I mentioned, what else is there?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by truthlover, posted 05-03-2007 2:04 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by truthlover, posted 05-03-2007 2:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 331 (399057)
05-03-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by truthlover
05-03-2007 2:53 PM


Re: Jars Christian Cult Of Ignorance
Spiritual revelation.
And my answer to that is until it is tested, how can we know who the revelation is from?
I was mostly objecting to the word "context." The NT writers regularly pull Scriptures out of context, and all the early fathers followed right in their footsteps. How much more out of context can you get than Isaiah's prophecy about the virgin birth? Anyone can read Isaiah 7 and see that Isaiah could not possibly, in context, have been talking about a virgin birth 700 years in the future.
Yes they most certainly do pull out of context and continue to do so even today.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by truthlover, posted 05-03-2007 2:53 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by truthlover, posted 05-03-2007 4:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 148 of 331 (399106)
05-03-2007 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by truthlover
05-03-2007 4:12 PM


How DO you know.
My answer is that you'll know a prophet by his fruit.
Which comes back the the point I always try to make. It is not what you profess or claim or even believe, it is what you do.
The Gospel is that it is okay to fail, just not okay not to try.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by truthlover, posted 05-03-2007 4:12 PM truthlover has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 183 of 331 (403824)
06-05-2007 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by truthlover
06-05-2007 8:27 AM


Re: Common Union
However, those who claim to believe the Bible really are obligated to believe that truth can be found in a communion of people.
Can be found.
That does not say that it is found in a communion of people or that any communion of people necessarily represents truth.
A communion of people can also be dedicated to falsehoods.
One potential error in taking such things without question is that it provides a basis for almost all of the current cults.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by truthlover, posted 06-05-2007 8:27 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by truthlover, posted 06-05-2007 12:03 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 331 (443012)
12-23-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Phat
12-23-2007 3:38 AM


Re: Question For Ringo
Maps and Territories.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 12-23-2007 3:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(6)
Message 197 of 331 (701252)
06-14-2013 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
06-14-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
You look at what they say that can be tested.
And when you find they lie about the simple stuff that can be tested like the age of the earth or if the Biblical Flood ever happened why would any reasonable person trust anything that they say?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 06-14-2013 12:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-17-2013 10:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 203 of 331 (701335)
06-17-2013 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
06-17-2013 10:00 AM


Re: Listening To Radio Preachers and Teachers
Phat writes:
Seems to me that we have found Gods character alive within us...(Jesus) but perhaps you may accuse me of taking the cheap and easy solution being sold.
I'd say that doesn't even have any meaning and is just word salad.
Phat writes:
What types of questions are people asking?
Why is what is called Evangelical or Fundamental or Biblical Christianity today so wedded to lies, ignorance, denial, injustice and dishonesty?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Phat, posted 06-17-2013 10:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 204 of 331 (701336)
06-17-2013 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
06-17-2013 10:01 AM


Re: Looking for a discussion
What I think is irrelevant.
But when someone today claims that the Biblical Flood actually happened or the the Earth is young or that there really was an Adam and Steve or Tower of Babel I know they liars and so I should doubt anything and everything they have to say.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-17-2013 10:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 206 of 331 (765643)
08-03-2015 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
08-03-2015 2:15 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
More word salad Phat.
Phat writes:
In my opinion, we can ask the Spirit of GOD into our heart---that is---in communion with us. It may well be our responsibility to try and do our best but we cannot do it alone. In this case the source is important.
What the hell does any of that mean? Will you finally after being asked for over a decade tell us how someone can know they are in communion with God and how God can actually do anything a human cannot?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 2:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 9:21 AM jar has replied

  
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