Evangelical Support Group

Phat:Are you saying that literalist believers are illogical? Or that logical believers cannot be literalists?If so, I submit that you are lending credence to a false dichotomy.The truth is exquisitely logical.Let me run some ideas by you...Logic without truth is pure materalism.'True logic' has a central quality... it is honesty (love).For example... Adolph Hitler's philosophy was logical (mathematically). But it was not honest. Therefore it is not 'true logic'.It boils down to 'whole truths' and 'partial truths'. A partial truth is a 'whole' lie.Do you understand so far?Francis A. Schaeffer called it 'true truth', and I believe I am expressing the same.This is very important Phat... Because the world often thinks of logic in terms of the purely material. But logic is more than utilitarian and practical. It is also moral...

Phat:Hello Emanuel Kant!His ghost still haunts us even in the 21st century Logic, as explained by mike the wiz (in a thread labeled as nonsense and given a thumbs down), is entirely and manifestly inarguable. The ideas and concepts he brought to bear are not new. They are solid foundations for all philosophy (religion). And they are only fully framed within the Christian worldview.That is where those laws were defined; in the Academies created by Christians. In the 'Universities' where 'unity in diversity' used to be taught.I am going round and round about one strand of this issue right now, with Nosy. I only wish you had the gumption to promote the thread without the caviat of concensus. But you don't seem to get it yourself.I will not go to the extreme of saying that 'that' means you are not a Christian; but it has been tempting. And I apologize for making that accusation in the past. Dangerous ground it is...In the very least, it seems that you often defer to the status quo (the spirit of the age). Not a biblical principle... In fact, it is very contrary to scripture. Where is your discernment?I cannot help but think, that you should at least be able to grasp some of this upon admonishment by a sincere (albeit zealous) brother. But your obvious struggle with it gives me pause (both ways). Since you don't completely write me off (as others who will remain un-named have), I do not do so with you either.I concede that we all have different gifts, and that we run the risk of judging each other falsely, by expecting all to manifest our unique abilities. Those who speak in 'angelic toungues' do so to the horror of many. I wish not to fall into that trap. So work with me brother...Truth, is essentially, the quality of our propositions. A logically contradictory statement is false.It cannot even be argued because you cannot challenge the law of non-contradiction without affirming it. Because if you challenge it, you are actually infering that I am wrong and you are right. That is proof of the sufficiency of it's truthfulness.When Jesus spoke, He declared what is true! His words are not even challengeable, without moving into illogical ground.The critics are wrong... Because by being critical, they have just affirmed that truth cannot contradict itself. Either this is true, or that! Never both.The critics are using deceptive philosophy Phat. I don't want you to accept what I say about that. I want you to understand it.They create a false peace. They ask us to accept and be inclusive of their ways, but at the expense of our scriptures. Why will they not be tolerant and inclusive, of what they call our morality?We must accept their morality. But they expect us to moderate ours.And we fall for the lie!Why?Why?Why?I'll tell you why...Because we want to be liked, admired, and respected by men.Whom do you worship when push comes to shove?If you haven't already... please read what I said to mike:http://EvC Forum: Shraff's Omnipresence -->EvC Forum: Shraff's OmnipresenceDon't let em trick you into being friends. They don't play nice.The devil is a sweet talker Phat. he is not overtly evil. he resides in darkness. In an evil world that is twisted inside out, it is love and truth that appear on the surface to be evil an intolerant. That is why they crucified Jesus. He didn't speak their language. He spoke His Word.That is my cousel at this time.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Phat:I am in that boat with you.Phat:I don't know if it is lukewarm, so much as it is tying to keep out of trouble. But it is trouble that kindles the fire. It is the fire which reveals our weakness. And it is our weakness that allows God to use us.You think I am being too harsh when I am only being who I am. I have only recently realized my own propensity for over-the-top zealotry. And I did so by trusting the process. By not fearing to say what I truely believed. From there, the branches are being pruned.I don't think you've allowed the persecution to temper you. You attempt to control it and keep safe. If that is so, I understand. You've seen how far I have gone at times to try and control the situation. And God rebukes me.We must walk out on the water with full expectation that he will catch us. I know how embarassing it is to start sinking, but to realize that he always catches me is very encouraging.Honestly, I don't think you are here to evangelize. You're here for friendship. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just don't forget that our opponenets are here to evangelize their own agenda (whther they are conscious of it or not). Theirs is the dominant priesthood. And there are many in between.And unlike many of us theists, they do not put their friendship above the ideological loyalty. They are ideologues first, and friends second. The most absolute and unyeilding among us, are those who are offended at the mention of the words 'absolute', 'truth', 'morality', and 'Christ'.It is the one thing that they understand better, than the Christians they expect to do the opposite; 'No compromise'. They believe in their truth, yet convince us to doubt God's Word!Clever devils.

Phat:I didn't know it was Lewis who first presented the idea. Seems to me it is in the first verses of Genesis. It is the difference between light and darkness (spiritually speaking). But that is a heavy issue to be sure!Your not crazy to believe that stuff. The crazy people are the one's who don't. They actually believe they are in control. We that is... when not in our 'right' frame of mind.Of course the sophisticates and pharisees will label you as nuts. That shouldn't suprise you, they did the same to Christ. They seek truth that affirms themselves (which does not exist). The message of the cross is foolishness to them.Do you think they suffer from the doubts you have????No! They don't! The fact that you have doubts is proof that you are thinking. They are not... You need to excercise that, and consider that guys like mike the wiz have not confused logic with faith, but rather it is you who, when making that comment, confused the two.The pressure to conform to this world's man-made systems is unending. And those systems break down very easily if you find the right points of tension. Those points are so obvious, that we miss them very often. And their progenators are completely unaware of them.So if their ideas are incoherent, then where do they come from? Does man invent logic? Does it not precede him? If a man were not logical, then he would not be a man. So it is part of his very nature. Logic is not his to twist and bend. Logic is what it is.So if man twisting logic is actually counter to his nature, then where do these ideas originate?Men are born without any ideas. They come naked into this world.I have ideas come to mind that I do not even wish to think about. So what gives?Do you follow me?There are many spiritual forces whispering in our mind's ear. Many visions coming to our mind's eye. We are not creating the images, but we worship the one's we choose to. It's a never ending battle for our minds.Difficult to accept, only because we like to think we are in control of ourselves. But our wars and rumors of wars reveal that that is not the case. Our morning paper prooves otherwise.If not for the clear, truthful, and prophetic warning of my wife, I would not be able to control my desire to waste my life away arguing on this forum. So, I cannot even control myself without a daily submission to reality and truth. That is the only thing we should be worshipping. With all our heart, mind, soul, and strength.I have more to say in response to your post, but we're taking the kids out... God help me! I'll be back.

Phat:We all reach our limits intellectually. Personally, I think many here have not pushed themselves to where I believe they are capable intellectually. And I am not talking about ammassing information and statistics. I am talking about the critical thinking skills which have all but been obliterated in the popular culture. As a culture, we have lost our power to reason.And the dogma is not just in the churches, but the Academies as well. If we are all thinking in a valid manner (logically), then we will naturally fall onto the same common ground.And if nothing else, those who are struggling logically should be willing to defer to those who can understand, assuming those who can also can show maturity and grace (which kinda disqualifies me ).That is the distinction between knowledge (dogma) and wisdom (understanding). Understanding and wisdom iare far better than knowledge. Knowledge puffs up...But yes phat, beyond that (and more importantly) spiritual revelation is crucial. And it is not as mystical as we have been led to believe by the cynical empericists. It is a quite natural process of healing in some degree. And that only requires humilty. Humility is an ongoing process. My first revelation was to consider (as luducrous as it seemed at the time) that Christianity may be true.It's like Lewis said, "Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable."That is the onset of revelation in one man. It is not an 'all at once' kind of thing. But it is always an epiphany no matter the level.Phat:We've allowed ourselves to be fooled into believing that science is anything more than a tool. It has it's strengths, and it's weaknesses. It is not all seeing and comprehensive enough to make the claims it does.Actually, it is not the science itself that makes these claims, but the 'extrapolations' and 'theories' based on what is 'actually scientific'.They try to confuse us with the details. But the details are often not even valid. So there is no need to argue over the details, when the starting assumptions are intellectually incoherent.That is where the battle must be one. It is the errors in their presupposed philosophy (within the science itself) that must be exposed. And it is a difficult thing to communicate. Especially when the opponent is convinced that he is right. He will not even take the time to slow down and examine the thinking. He just writes it off as irrelevant.There is much pride at stake. And I for one have been learning over and over how liberating it is to occasionally say, 'ok... you are right'. It's not as painful as we think. Very few of us is 'all wrong', but it is the wrong pieces adjacent the right ones, that distort the image of the whole puzzle.Phat:I disagree... He cetainly works within the church, but Jesus made it plain that He knows the difference between the wheat and the tares; the sheep and the goats.His sheep hear His voice.Let me tell you what G.K. Chesterton said in a letter to the editor. The editor had asked the question, 'what's Wrong With the World?'. I don't think we need to cast stones Phat. We only need remind people that we are all sinners. If you think the problem is 'conservatives', you might want to look at your own heart.What is destroying this country is sin. So let us endeavor to tell that truth, for sin is an equal opportunity killer.They've fooled us again. Don't fall for it.They think 'judgement' is prejudiced. How can they make such a 'judgement'?But by what objective moral and virtuous foundation will they deny morality and virtue itself?Jesus made it clear that when He does judge, His judgements are right. Because He does not do so with human standards. but by the Word of God.Do you believe Him?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

PhaT:I'll have to get to the rest another day, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. And that has been my most difficult struggle; to realize that I cannot persuade anyone. That the truth is nonsense to them. It absolutely kills me, and seems so unfair...But if we were able, then we would notneed God, for we would be God. God in His wisdom, has created us as interdependant. Even He Himself is complete, only in Himself (trinity).I will get back to you, but I cannot today. I must go to work later and will not return until tommorrow eve.Edited by Rob, : 'not' can be an important word

Phat:With all due respect, I think you have some bas assumptions in there.Jesus made it clear that they are more than willing to accept us as individuals (coming in our own name), but will not accept us coming in His name. We are no threat to them. It is God (as revealed by the Holy sciptures) whom they despise. They have their own God, created in their own image. So it is Christ they reject.Joh 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.As for the thinking skills, I agree in part. The church has abandoned the battle intellectually in large part. And this is strange, since we are told very clearly to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.I have never had the energy or inclination to study. But mysteriously, after my converison I developed such a thirst for God's word that I have no doubt as to where the power and energy to feed that hunger originates. This has extended to much extrabiblical literature as well, particularly in the area of philosophy and theology. I am still very much a layman, but have found the thinking to be thoroughly superior to what our detractors deem as their own sound wisdom.It doesn't matter if it turns them off Phat. We cannot alter God's Word so as to make it more appealing. That would be akin to outcome based education.They cannot hear the truth because they are not honest. Consider what I said to sidelined in our great debate: Their hearts are corrupt Phat. And if your heart is corrupt, and my heart is corrupt, then how much more corrupt is the heart of a man who will not even admit his duplicity in the first place, so as to begin retraining.You and I are bieng transformed. We die daily, and it is hard. They will not even accept the premise! They will not hear it because of their dishonesty. That is why Jesus said, "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father the devil..."Phat:I cannot understand why you give jar any credit at all. Talk about con-men. So yes, many are. And I just named one.Phat:We cannot reach them. And the Bible is full of warnings about it. I thought the same when I first came here. But I discovered I was carrying my own name and seeking the praise of men.But I have learned alot about myself and my own motivations. This experience has strengthened me tremendously.I still think you have a problem with rejection. And if you do not stand in the face of persecution, the Bible makes it plain that you do not have the Spirit, which is the only power capable of pulling us through that fire. Not saying that is the case, but you better read your Bible more, and spend less time here. If you ask me, your buddy jar is a master deceiver. The consumate example of a false convert. The manifestation of the worst and clever qualities of antichrist. But he has never fooled me. I am incredibly suprised that you cannot see that.If we throw our pearls to swine and do not wipe the dust off our feet at some point, they will devour us. Because our love for them has surpassed our love of God. It's a sick and twisted game of spiritual abuse puncuated by symapthy that is dealt with well in C.S. Lewis' book, 'The Great Divorce'.Don't forget that at some point we are to hand them over to the devil... Grace is never to sacrifice justice in the process.I have the advantage of being in a truck for many hours a week. I can listen to many great preachers and listen to all kinds of CD's including the Bible. I would fall if it wasn't for that, because the spiritual battle is much much more powerful than I, if I am relying on my own wisdom.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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