OK, then what you are saying your experience proves makes sense. Please do not extend it, as I’ve so often seen done, to erase doubt that
What started this whole argument was that Phat had mentioned something about a personal experience with God. I agreed, having similar moments with Him, that this is what turned me towards Him. I once was very resistant to it and very skeptical of the whole thing. I'm merely speaking from personal experience. Others have basically said that my experience means nothing-- that I probably had a moment of delusion, or what have you.
How annoying is it for somebody to critique a personal experience of someone else?
People of all faiths use non-doctrinal encounters with God to affirm their whole system of belief. Even I believe in God, depending on how you define that term.
I'm not going to criticize or minimize anyone's experience with God. I believe that God comes to people of other faiths to redirect them. I believe people who have no doctrinal understanding of God, have moments with Him to goad us towards Him.
The total amount of text removed is claimed by KJV onlyist Christians to be greater than the entire texts of I and II peter put together, and futher say that the following major Christian doctrines are attacked
I try not to get in these inter-denominational refutations and quibbles because it causes dissension. And often times they are arguing over silly matters that cause an unnecessary division amongst believers.
1. The Deity of Jesus Christ is attacked often in the modern versions (see Gn 22:8, Mic 5:2, 1Tm 3:16, Hb 1:8)
Which fundy atheist website did you go to gather these questions? How do any of these verses "attack" the Deity of Christ? If anything, they confirm them. This is the NIV translation.
"Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together." -Genesis 22:8 NIV
Have you ever heard the terminology that Jesus is the Lamb of God? That has its origins in this passage, where Jesus because the ultimate atoning sacrificial lambs for all sins. How does that bring his deity into question.
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me One who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." -Micah 5:2 NIV
Please explain to me how this passage questions the deity of Jesus? This is a messianic verse prophesying that the Lamb of God, the messiah, will come from the tribe of Judah. It goes on to describe the messiah in eternal terms, providing doctrinal reasons why the messiah is more than
just a man.
"
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory." -1
st Timothy 3:16 NIV
Again, this verse
affirms the deity of Christ, not brings it into disrepute.
"
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." -Hebrews 1:8
Same thing.
Anyway, that's all that I'm at liberty to look up since its evident that, where ever you got your information from, its incorrect.
Do we agree that the changes amount to much more than just forms of words such as hast/have?
No, we don't agree.
Whether or not the difference affect doctrine is something that non-KJV onlyists fall back on, but simply looking at the statement shows that it makes no sense. Many Christians start out with their doctrine, and then read the bible such as to make the Bible fit their doctrine. So of course changes won’t effect doctrine, since it’s already decided.
The translations are close. What you are suggesting is that there is some grand conspiracy propagated by, who, we'll never know, to make Jesus out to be something He isn't. But lets take 10 random passages and see if there is a great disparity between them.
1.
"And the way of peace have they not known" -Romans 3:17 KJV
"and the way of peace they do not know." -Romans 3:17 NIV
2.
"And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock." -Exodus 2:19 KJV
"They answered, "An Egyptian rescued us from the shepherds. He even drew water for us and watered the flock." -Genesis 2:19 NIV
3.
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." -Revelation 6:13 KJV
"and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind." -Revelation 6:13 NIV
4.
"But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions." -Obadiah 1:17 KJV
"But on Mount Zion will be deliverance; it will be holy, and the house of Jacob will possess its inheritance" -Obadiah 1:17 NIV
5.
"But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house." -Proverbs 6:31 KJV
"Yet if he is caught, he must pay sevenfold, though it costs him all the wealth of his house." -Proverbs 6:31 NIV
6. "
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time" -1
st Peter 5:6 KJV
"
Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time." -1
st Peter 5:6 NIV
7. "
A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt." Deuteronomy 22:30 KJV
"
A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed." -Deuteronomy 22:30 NIV
8. "
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner" -Luke 18:13 KJV
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner." -Luke 18:13 NIV
9. "
The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? -Jeremiah 8:9 KJV
"
The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have? -Jeremiah 8:9 NIV
10. "
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots" -Jude 1:12 KJV
"
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm”shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted”twice dead." -Jude 1:12 NIV
That was done completely at random. Do you see any great disparity that would cause you to question the validity of the translation itself? I see nothing so great that it cannot be reconciled by the minor variations in the English language.
For instance, if I found a “Bible” that listed only the Nicene creed and a couple other sentences, and claimed it was a new, correct version of the bible, one could claim that this new “version”, that is less than a page long, is not a significant difference, since it doesn’t change any doctrine.
The idea is to be as close to the original manuscripts as possible. That means to compare the Dead Sea Scrolls, Coptic text, Armenian text, Gothic text, Ethiopic text, the Septuagint, the Vulgate, etc. You have to remember that transcribing was considered a professional career in antiquity. Obviously, no printing presses or photocopy machines existed, so it was the scribe who was trained to copy documents. And in an age where illiteracy was prevalent, the scribe was considered a very learned individual. The task for the scribe was usually an undertaking assigned to a devout Jew. They didn't just pick random people off of the street to perform this job. Its also important to remember that the Scribes believed they were dealing with the very Word of God and, therefore, were extremely careful in transposing documents. They did not hastily write things down. This was an arduous and meticulous task, exhibiting great detail and reproof.
Secondly, and more importantly - saying that the versions are the same is again raising the “pretty good god” issue. In other words, are you saying that the versions are the same because God is in control of the process of Bible transcription?
I'm saying that they are in remarkable agreement. I believe that it is entirely possible to have textual errors, and I believe it is entirely possible that God could preserve His Word. The earliest complete copy of the Hebrew Tenach dates from 900 AD. During the early part of the tenth century there was a group of Jews known as the ”
Massoretes.’ They were meticulous in their copying. The texts they had were all in capital letters, and there was no punctuation or paragraphs. The Massoretes would copy any given book of the Tenach, and when they completed it, they would count the total number of letters. Then they would find the middle of the book by extrapolate backwards using the number/letter system. If even one ”
jot’ (
equivalent to an apostrophe) or ”
tittle’ (
equivalent to the dotting of an ”i’ or crossing of a ”t’) were missing, they would take the document and throw it away. If the book were not an exact replica, they would start over. Not to mention that at least two scribes wrote together for added assurance. This, I believe, is why Jesus mentions the accuracy. He's essentially saying, "if its in there, you can take it to the bank."
All the present copies of the Hebrew text are in remarkable agreement. Moreover, comparisons of the Massoretic text to the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate revealed the careful transposing. Very little deviation has ever been found-- far less than you assert. As if the Massoretic text wasn’t trustworthy enough, the most remarkable discovery came by the most unlikely of discoverers... A young, Bedouin shepherd.
The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was the most outstanding archeological discovery of the twentieth century. The authenticity of the DSS at this point is beyond reproach. In fact, with the exception of the book of Ruth, every book of the Tenach was discovered.
Now, where the DSS ties into the Massoretic text is shown in the comparing of the two. The Essenes and Masorites were extremely close to one another in accuracy. Only 17 letters were found different by contrast. You might think that is a lot, but when I say they were different, it’s like the difference between ”honor’ and ”honour.’ They produced no change to the meaning of the text whatsoever, just like the NIV produces no real change to the textual meaning of the KJV. Out of it all, only one word was truly questionable, but even it did not change the effect of the meaning.
I was making an example of what a simple encounter with God doesn’t prove.
My encounter with God proves nothing to you. I'm simply saying that my encounter with God proved it to
me.
I was asking how you keep them from being changed over time in your mind, as happens normally with many human memories. This is important because if your ideas about what God said change in the wrong way, you could end up in Hell for all eternity.
Look, you are entitled to come up with whatever excuses you want or assign for me whatever deficiencies you want me to have. You're entitled to that skepticism. But I know what happened to me. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I was having a conversation with someone. Somewhere along the line, you felt the need to interject. You have no way of knowing what experience(s) I've had either way. Its not a provable matter in either direction. Its something for me to know on a personal level.
I have no evidence of the elephants or flugersnorts. However, there is tons of evidence that people misremember things. There have been plenty of studies showing that people regularly fabricate memories, change their meanings, change the words they heard people say, and on and on.
Then maybe God has come to you in a very personal way. And you have tried to reason with yourself that it must be a concoction of your mind. And in that way, you misremember your experience.
From my own life, my father met with a boyhood friend, and described how he remembered the time...
That's a great story. It doesn't apply to me. But you're still welcome to your skepticism.
Ah, but I was sure in the first place. That’s the whole point, that memories we are “sure” of could still be misremembered, and without outside evidence, we have no way of knowing.
Then you wouldn't know that you were misremembering. In which case, it brings you full circle.
Oh, and do we have a similar picture of Jesus’s statement about the OT (did you see post 126)?
I'm not sure if I've read it yet. I'll make a point to do so, though.
"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton
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