Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The philosophy behind The Twelve Steps
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 108 (399704)
05-07-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
05-07-2007 12:24 PM


I wanted to start a topic which discusses the philosophical validity of the well known 12 steps used in both secular and faith based recovery programs.
Well, just to let you know - these steps aren't used in secular recovery programs. How could they be? How could a secular program ask you to give your life over to God?
I can't speak to their "philosophical validity", whatever you expected that to mean, but I can tell you that it's fairly well-known that these 12-step programs have little practical validity. The estimated success rate of the AA 12-step program is no greater than the number of people who conquer their own addictions all on their own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 05-07-2007 12:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 05-07-2007 2:04 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 7 by berberry, posted 05-07-2007 3:15 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 108 (399709)
05-07-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
05-07-2007 2:04 PM


Is that a documented fact or is it your opinion?
The AA organization doesn't release "success rate" numbers on its own, but Penn and Teller's Bullshit made it clear that the best numbers they could find for the effectiveness of the organization were statistically identical to the number of people who sober up on their own. From Wikipedia:
quote:
However overall success rates were still less than spectacular, indicating the efficacy of modern treatments. Newsweek reported that "A year after completing a rehab program, about a third of alcoholics are sober, an additional 40 percent are substantially improved but still drink heavily on occasion, and a quarter have completely relapsed."[39]
So, 65% of the people in the program go back to drinking. Moreover:
quote:
There are many studies available that describe negative results from attending AA. Ditman et al. (1967) found a correlation between participation in AA and an increase in the alcoholics' rate of multiple arrests for public drunkenness.[51] Brandsma et al. (1979) found a correlation between AA and an increased rate of binge drinking. After several months of participating in AA, the alcoholics in AA were doing five times as much binge drinking as a control group that got no treatment at all, and nine times as much binge drinking as another group that got Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. Brandsma argues that teaching people that they are alcoholics who are powerless over alcohol becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy[52]
Alcoholics Anonymous - Wikipedia
What do you feel to be the root cause of an addiction?
Addiction is a complex phenomenon with both biochemical and behavioral causes, but one thing that I think we can be adamantly certain about is that addiction is not caused when people feel insufficiently powerless over their own lives and behavior, which is why I think the whole focus on surrender to a higher power is ridiculous.
Some people say that others have an "addictive personality", but I think it's less a function of personality and much more a function of biochemistry, possibly heritable genetic factors. (We know that the children of alcoholics are more likely to be alcoholics themselves, of course that could simply be due to social factors from growing up in the household of an alcoholic.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 05-07-2007 2:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 05-07-2007 4:37 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 108 (399750)
05-07-2007 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
05-07-2007 4:37 PM


Re: My Perspective On The Twelve Steps
Note, however, that they say God as we understood Him. It might be quite possible that you understand God as humans define Him to be the Super Ego or perhaps an authority construct.
Look, that's just nonsense. That's the kind of shoddy thinking people display when they think that a "prayer to God" at a school event (for instance) isn't a violation of the first amendment because "just plain God" is "non-denominational."
"God" is the name of the Judeo-Christian deity. There's no such thing as a "secular God", by definition. It's a contradiction in terms.
For you, if humans are their own power a higher power may simply mean a human with more insight than yourself
C'mon! Look at your steps. "We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character." Magical acts of restoration and defect-removal require a resume with some pretty specific qualifications, Phat. Like - being a deity.
The 12 steps of AA are not a secular program, and this has been recognized by every court in the land, which has found that it's a violation of free expression of religion for courts to mandate participation in AA-style 12-step programs.
I expected that you would blame addictions on biochemistry!
If addictions have no biochemical basis how do you explain the symptoms of withdrawal? You can die from withdrawal. That's a little more serious than might be expected from simply a lack of personal responsibility.
And it doesn't explain the efficacy of drugs like heroin antagonists and ibogaine that cure addiction. (Of course, most Western governments prevent addiction treatment with ibogaine, because the idea of a drug that cures addiction is anathema to the Drug War philosophy that it's all about people lacking "personal responsibility.")

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 05-07-2007 4:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by dwise1, posted 05-08-2007 2:33 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 108 (399863)
05-08-2007 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
05-08-2007 12:31 PM


You can get sentenced to AA, right? Like, for DUI's n'stuff.
Not constitutionally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2007 12:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2007 2:24 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 23 of 108 (399865)
05-08-2007 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
05-08-2007 12:44 PM


Addiction is addiction when a person is powerless to stop it.
If people are powerless to stop, how do you explain all the addicts who stop?
I really don't see powerlessness as a useful way to discuss the problem of addiction. There's a reason that drug addiction is a very real problem, but things like "video game addiction" are just made-up excuses to justify expensive treatment at boutique clinics. Drug addiction causes real physical changes in the brain and body. It's a disease.
You don't send a cancer patient to "Cancerholics Anonymous", you start treatment with surgeries or chemotherapy. Because they have a problem that isn't just in their head (jokes about brain cancer notwithstanding.) It's the same with drug and alcohol abuse. A system of counseling is required, as well, to deal with the behavioral issues that led to the abuse in the first place, but it's a physical problem too that must be addressed. Talking about "God" doesn't do that.
I wonder if it would be possible to construct a 12 step model for atheists.
I don't think it would be anything so glib as a bunch of steps, but why don't you look up Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, as mentioned in my link, and we can discuss it as an alternative to woo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 05-08-2007 12:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 12-31-2007 7:58 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 108 (399867)
05-08-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
05-08-2007 2:24 PM


IANAL, but my understanding is that you can be given the option of either jail or approved treatments, and one of those treatments can include AA as long as there's a secular alternative; but given only the choice between jail or AA is unconstitutional.
So, you're right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2007 2:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 65 of 108 (402426)
05-26-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Jon Paine
05-26-2007 2:55 PM


Re: Is there a "godless" type of 12 step program?
Rational behavior emotive therapy is one such program.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 2:55 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 10:22 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 67 by Jon Paine, posted 05-26-2007 10:23 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024