"Evidence and Faith"

Jees, with all these perfections, you would think there would never be any mistakes. lol.Here's my propblem with these experiments.
What is the point of praying for someone, specifically to see if prayer works?
I do not feel the Lord should be tested on this level.Second, there is more than one kind of prayer.Third, as I stated before, it is possible that healing relies on the faith of the believer, not the person praying.And lastly, of course prayer would be more effective if the person getting prayed for was spoken to directly. There is power in the spoken word. You even agree to that, as well as the studies. Although it does not "prove" God's existance. Could we at least agree that taking a pill and praying for someone are completely different?One is very objective, and the other is highly subjective. Yet, I still get to se people get healed, including myself. Must be something wrong. I know you've explained it all to me, about confirmation bias, and everything else. Of course. I get the business because I try dam hard to maintain integerty.It is one of the things we teach about in our church. Character, and integerty. We believe you will be much better off, trying to hear from God, once you have those things in order. In order for tithing to really work in your life, you must believe that you are giving back to God. It really doesn't matter what the church does with it.On the other hand, this is not a licsense to be foolish with your money either. Even though we are non-denominational, our books are open. (actual, we are losely tied to the assemblies of God church.)
We have a business meeting every year, where the floor is open, and we review the books, and you can ask any question you want.We also run a day care in our church as well. I have truely enjoyes this thread, from the beginning to the end, and especially talking with you and ringo.
Have a great weekend yourself.
Anthony

Let me explain better.Let's say you have a white friend. He hates black people.
You don't agree with that, because that is not the correct way to live life.
So you have judged your friend, and called him wrong by his actions.Little do you know, that he was molested, mugged, and hurt really bad by some black people in his neighborhood (it's just a fake story), way beyond what you could ever comprehend. But you don't know this. Once you find out, you start to understand why he is the way he is.Being the understanding person that you are, you proceed to try and help him through it, so that he won't be predjudice towards all black people, and not all black people are going to treat him the same way.Mentally he was locked into a bad place, because of what happened to him in life.This can happen with things like, being molested, divorce, hurts from break-ups, etc.No-one is perfect ringo, and we all act a certain way, based on our experiences, no matter what we belive in. To me, only God was able to show me these things (sometimes specific things) about people, which leads me to a state of understanding where they come from, and why they act the way they do, appropiate, or inappropiate. Yea, but how can you explain the hugely varied response you will get from one person to the next.Someone might not to anything at all. You might even consider that good, and say, see, that person has it all together, they don't let thing bother them.​

First off, some of the times, people need not tell me, God highlights these things to me. When they do tell me, it is only conformation (bias lol).It is hard to have this conversation with someone that only wants to deal the objective. What I am telling you is subjective. I only wanted to deal with the objective for a very long time.But one thing that has happened to me, after getting to know the Holy Spirit, is that the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of truth, and ever since then, I am able to discern truth from lies a 1000 times better. I never said they wouldn't.
Many times bad experiences are training, to make you better, an answer to the question, why does God let bad things happen. I don't need to know. Yes, that is why I said it is what is their hearts that count.You could have two people, both serving in a soup kitchen. One is there because they think by doing this "act" it will get them into heaven, the other just wants to help people.It is what is in their hearts that count. Your fruits are relative to where you are in life, and what you have been through.

I did not say that.IF a "Christian" prays for a "non-Christian" for God to heal them, and the non-Christian does not believe that God will heal them, then it is possible that God will not heal them.
Some people get healed because of their faith, others get healed so they would have faith. It's all up to God. There is no science to it. Yes, but not the reasons why. Which means, it doesn't mean anything.Just because people get cured by sugar pills, does not mean that the actual pill is ineffective.

That may or may not be true.At the end of the day (or more precisly, at the end of your life) there is only one thing on your mind. OMG no, I read a few, and they are worse than here, I'll stay here for now. Why can't it be both?
Would you agree that certain people have a gift at reading others?
Where do you think that gift comes from?If you were lacking that gift, and then in the snap of a finger, you thought you heard from God, and then you suddenly got that gift, wouldn't that raise an eyebrow? Truth from lies, is on the outside, what is on their hearts is on the inside. Understanding why they lie, or tell the truth, comes from their hearts, which sometimes gets revealed to me. Discernment between the two was also increased. But you posted the verse yourself. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will get into heaven.20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'By their fruits.What I see in this verse is that even though they drove out demons, and performed miracles, which by some standard could be considered "good fruits" are not going to heaven.From bible.cc, here are some commentaries on that verse: Matt7:21-22

quote:

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7:21 {7} Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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(7) Even the best gifts that exist are nothing without godliness.

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7:21 Not every one, etc. The Lord has shown that the entrance into the kingdom is through the strait gate. He now shows more particularly what is needed to enter. Certain ones are described who cannot enter in. Not every one implies that some who say, Lord, Lord, etc. shall enter in. Those enter

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that doeth the will of my Father. No one can be a citizen of the kingdom who does not obey the King.

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7:21 Not every one - That is, no one that saith, Lord, Lord - That makes a mere profession of me and my religion, shall enter - Whatever their false teachers may assure them to the contrary: He that doth the will of my Father - as I have now declared it. Observe: every thing short of this is only saying, Lord, Lord. Luke 6:46.

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7:21-29 Christ here shows that it will not be enough to own him for our Master, only in word and tongue. It is necessary to our happiness that we believe in Christ, that we repent of sin, that we live a holy life, that we love one another. This is his will, even our sanctification. Let us take heed of resting in outward privileges and doings, lest we deceive ourselves, and perish eternally, as multitudes do, with a lie in our right hand. Let every one that names the name of Christ, depart from all sin. There are others, whose religion rests in bare hearing, and it goes no further; their heads are filled with empty notions. These two sorts of hearers are represented as two builders. This parable teaches us to hear and do the sayings of the Lord Jesus: some may seem hard to flesh and blood, but they must be done. Christ is laid for a foundation, and every thing besides Christ is sand. Some build their hopes upon worldly prosperity; others upon an outward profession of religion. Upon these they venture; but they are all sand, too weak to bear such a fabric as our hopes of heaven. There is a storm coming that will try every man's work. When God takes away the soul, where is the hope of the hypocrite? The house fell in the storm, when the builder had most need of it, and expected it would be a shelter to him. It fell when it was too late to build another. May the Lord make us wise builders for eternity. Then nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ Jesus. The multitudes were astonished at the wisdom and power of Christ's doctrine. And this sermon, ever so often read over, is always new. Every word proves its Author to be Divine. Let us be more and more decided and earnest, making some one or other of these blessednesses and Christian graces the main subject of our thoughts, even for weeks together. Let us not rest in general and confused desires after them, whereby we grasp at all, but catch nothing.

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I am not trying to judge people here, but if you are serving soup, to please yourself only, then you are ignoring God. Maybe that might prevent you from entering heaven?Keep in mind, that I am not saying that serving soup without knowing God is a totally bad thing.And just to go back on what you said about Jesus saying, it is what you do that counts, I agree. You cannot be in Christ, if you are not with Christ, meaning, to follow His ways. It is a constant thing.I do not believe that you get saved once, and then that's it, you are going to heaven. I feel, and so do the people in my church, that being saved is a continuing, growing process. I don't even like the word "saved", but you know what I am talking about. If the tree was burned in a fire, and was unable to produce fruits for a few years, does make it a bad tree? Some trees, are just unable to produce good fruits, for valid reasons. Doesn't make them bad trees.

Well I won't say it with 100% certainty, but the possibility is that, we are wondering where we are going, whether it be the grave, hell, or heaven, or the Pink unicorn palace. I don't know if there is one or not, that wasn't my point. Well, I believe all gifts are from above, since He created us (however that happened). But whether they are from above or not, the gift exists, and it may not totally rely on body language, you'll have to be open to that idea if you are truely science minded.I mean what could it have been that made me magically get better at doing it?
(let's assume it did happen for purposes of this discussion, I know you don't know me, and would be taking my word on it)There were many things that happened to me, in the snap of a finger, and you would have had to know me before, and then after. You are only seeing that after, but rest assured, 4 years ago, I would not have bothered to come into this forum, and start talking to you. The evidence of that would be in meeting the friends I have made over the last 4 years. And to ask them what kind of a person I am, and how I care about them.
Then maybe compare that to all my other friends, which btw will all tell you about the outwardly change they witnessed in me 4 years ago. Yes, I agree, but:
Ephesians 4
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.Those verses are very important. Not only do they say that some will be prophets, and so on, but they to work in those gifts, is to get closer to Christ.I am not proclaiming that I am a valid prophet here. I would leave that for you to decide, if I post a prophecy here, and it comes true.
We all have a gift to prophecy, some more than others.
But reading peoples hearts, is not a gift of prophecy, IMO. IT's just seeing people the way God see's me. Not judging them, and loving them, so that I may share the love of Christ with them, and get on to helping them, if I can, and if they let me. Of course the soup matters, as I said, but so does God. Reading this, seems to me that is a basis for all condemnation. It is a foundation for all the "wrong" religions out there.
We all have a path to take. IT took me 38 years before I felt like I knew God a little bit, and while I may have been a "good person" all those years, things are much different now.If people would have given up on me, and more importantly, if God would have given up on me, I would not be in a position to be doing the things I am able to do now.

Sorry ringo, but the relationships I have made over the years are not anecdotal. They are real, and viable. I never said it wasn't all. No, it doesn't. To me it says, using those gifts for Christ, brings you closer. Using our gifts for Christ. So then you will have to define John 3:16, and all the other times He says that the only way is through Him.Just keep in mind, that I do not think you are going to hell for not knowing Christ, or believing in Jesus. [qs]Different to you. But Jesus said that God only wants you to be a good person.[p/qs]So then that goes all the way back to when I said it was all relative.
You are agreeing now? That's my whole point.
Since God has shown me some of His love, I am able to be more effective.
Also, since doing things for Him, many doors have been opened in my life, where I am put into sensitive situations, that I would have handled incorrectly before.
This happens almost on a daily basis now.
You can call it conformation bias, but I was just minding my own business. It is way to obvious for me to even put any thought to it. If I do put thought to it, it is to deny that it is God, and just my own head.

If the person without "Christian faith" is healed, it is so that he may come to know "Christian fiath" or specifically, Jesus. Because there is no straight answer. I do not understand how or why God heals some and not others. I am asking God this all the time.But I have seen healing take place. What the specific rules are, I don't know. That's right, I don't have a definitive statement. But it is good to pray.
If prayer has an effect, I am saying it is possible that it cannot be tested. The bible only gives two ways to test God. One is by tithing, and the other I forgot. Both are in the Old Testament, so I am not even sure they apply anymore, but in my own life, I feel that tithing works. More importantly, I recognize that money is from God.

*sigh* Yes, I know that. I've expressed that it is a continuing process, and not just a one time statement of faith.
But, in the opposite direction, doing what He told us to do without believeing in Him, what is that? More than once.Don't get me wrong, I do not pretend to completely understand what that means. I do know what it means for me though. Let me share a story written by Rick Joyner. You tell me if there is God in it, or if you agree with it.Rick Joyner was taken to heaven with Jesus in a vision.
When he got there, there was a row of thrones.
In the lowest throne, there was a famous guy who with his works, saved many people, and introduced them to Christ.
Then on the highest throne, there was a bumb, that he recognized from the street. (there was everything in between)
He asked Jesus in his mind, why is this bumb on the highest throne?Jesus responded, IF I have 100 portions of love to give you, I gave that famous evangelist 75 portions, and only returned 35 portions.The bumb, I gave only 1 portion, but he doubled it, by turning his life around, and devoting himself to trying to share my love, then he died trying to save another bumb on the street, in the freezing cold.
As a matter of fact, you had a divine appointment with that bumb, but you shrugged him off.(this is a condensed version of the story, and probably missing a few points, but I wrote it to demostrate the relativeness of good fruits) Yes, I agree you have to do something, but if what is in heart is true, then you will do something. And it will be relative to where your at.There is no standard of what fruits are good and bad, they are relative.

Good stuff On Allah being the one true God.As far as other religions go, I can't say. God has allowed everything to happen. I don't think I should questions his reasons why, but try to understand why.If Jesus is the only way, then there must be a very good reason. and we should be able to express that reason to anyone, anytime. However, I can't tell why Christianity is better than any other religion. I don't even like religion, even though I am highly involved in one.I do know what works for me, at this point in time. I am sure it will grow. And as I question these things, and explore them, Jesus's way will either hold up, or not. I must say, He's given me a pretty good head start.Believing in God, or experiencing the Holy Spirit, does not make you an instant "know it all". The Holy Spirit, can change you dramatically. Yes, I can accept that as a possibility.
Even if I do not see it as that way right now. That is also a possibility. Because healings are relative. If God heals you, I think you will know it, or just choose to believe it.Oh, and btw, healings have a very small percentage to do with my belief. I see more scams than anything else, and it makes me wonder. It may be a week point of my faith.But when I first experienced what I believe to be the Holy Spirit, I was "high on God" and my prayers seem to be more effective, as I was trying to follow Him more. I have grown a little lax over the years, and I wonder if it is my own lack of following Him, that is leading to the lack of healings. Maybe if I was more righteous, I might get more prayers answered. I don't know.Lord knows I have many friends and relatives who are sick.

But the people who got directly healed by Him, recognized Him as Lord. and addressed Him that way.I can only think of one person that Jesus healed in the bible, who He wasn't standing next to.I think I get what you are saying, and I agree. Jesus did not heal people to "prove" He was Lord, as I have stated, but the people healed by Him, did recognize Him.
But this is not true for everyone, just look at Judas.

Sounds great, but what do you have to back that up with?I can understand people who didn't have a fair chance to meet Jesus, but for people like me and you, I think otherwise. It was Him, that opened that door, the least we could do is respect Him. Yes, I've expressed that many times, but it is that introduction to Christ, that is supposed to change your life, so that these things might be enabled in us. If they aren't, then you are denying God, IMO.The sad fact is that many people who do feel something, choose to ignore it. I forgot the actual numbers, but a good example would be the power team show we put on in our church, and over 200 people came to Christ. Only maybe a few actually followed up, and started going to church. (which is not the important thing) The important thing is that they started a relationship with Christ, and started doing the work of Christ. We can't actually know those numbers unless they started going to our church, and we could see their good works. I can't agree to that, or disagree. I can't judge that situation, and it varies from person to person.I think of a little boy who might have been molested by a priest, and Think, what fair chance does that person have at getting to know Christ now. But that person may be a good person his whole life, and all I know is that if I was God, I would let someone like that into heaven, and punish the priest.So in my humble opinion, anyone can get into heaven, it is up to God. Comparing fruits of a human, to fruits in the supermarket, isn't fair. There is much more involved.Is the fruit useful, by who's standard?I am sure Hitler thought his fruit was good, or Jim Jones. If they truely thought in their hearts that what they were doing was for the good, then what will happen to them, in your opinion?Or do they have to all pass the ringo standard of what good fruit is?
Your idea of good fruit is subjective to you.On person may think that killing a robber is good fruit, while another would see it as bad.Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Ok ringo, I agree with you, I was just asking your opinion on those things. Yes, God judges us on what we do, and the decisions we make, but how is it that faith saves us?
That is mentioned many times in the bible. I don't feel that way anymore, after having a chance to meet what I believe to be Him. That's all I can say about it, I guess. It made a huge difference in my life, and I hope what people see on the outside, shows an improvement, and I hope that it brings me closer to people, everyone, not just strangers.
The evidence in my life has shown that it has.{ABE}
This is perhaps my favorite bible verse, and until it happened to me, I did not believe it, or understand it.
Acts 1
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."To bear witness to something is to have seen or heard it.Can I get a witness? LOLEdited by riVeRraT, : Provide reasons for edit here, here you give reason for edit

But he does it because he loves him.There is a connection there.

No that is not the point jar. It is only the gospel according to jar.It is an if then statement. If you know anything about basic programming language, you'll understand one doesn't work without the other.Jesus asks him, do you love me?
If you do, then.Peter was one way before meeting Jesus, then after meeting Him, he became another way. That is what Jesus does for us. That is what the Holy Spirit does for us.I am not saying there is no quality in being a good person without God, but I am sure, all things considered, that a good person, can only become more good after meeting Jesus. More doors will open, and allow that person to be exponentially more effective at spreading goodness and love.The ultimate love in the universe, is the one that comes from God. Once knowing that love, you have a tool at your disposal, if you so choose to use it. No it's not.