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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 197 of 303 (401710)
05-21-2007 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by ICANT
05-21-2007 4:48 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
ICANT writes:
Are you declaring that there are no good Christians?
OR
Are you declaring that there are no bad Christians?
Ironically, I was thinking of you when I wrote that.
If I recall correctly, you don't claim to "be" a Christian, in that you don't claim to be "Christ-like". Using that criterion, there would be almost no Christians at all.
On the other hand, if claiming "I am a Christian" makes one a Christian, there are some very bad people who are Christians.
My own definition of "Christian" falls somewhere in the middle. I am generally inclined to believe people who claim they are Christians. Most of them are neither "good" nor "bad", just imperfect.
Those claimants who are truly bad (Jerry Falwell comes to mind), I tend to think of as "not true Christians".
Edited by Ringo, : Removed superfluous parenthesis.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by ICANT, posted 05-21-2007 4:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2007 12:10 AM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 200 of 303 (401821)
05-22-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by riVeRraT
05-22-2007 10:42 AM


riVeRraT writes:
God has shown me how and why people behave the way they do....
I said, "The only way you can know what other people see and understand is by their actions." You're talking about what you believe, not what you know.
... and I am able to forgive people as they do things to me based on this.
Forgiveness is not the issue here. We're talking about "evidence" of people's faith.
(At leat I am. )
I have also been able to address the problem directly, instead of the effects of the problem....
We are also not talking about "problems". The bad behaviour that I'm talking about is not always seen as bad by the people doing it. Sometimes, they even think it's "good" - e.g. persecuting homosexuals.
Since the Bible says "love thy neighbour", people who claim to believe the Bible ought to love their neighbours - and that love ought to be visible, not just "in their hearts". Jesus was pretty specific about how to love your neighbour - feed him, clothe him, visit him in prison. None of that is a secret between you and the Holy Spirit.
And people who love their neighbours don't claim that their neighbours caused 9-11 or Hurricane Katrina.
The evidence is in what you say and do, not in what you (claim to) believe.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by riVeRraT, posted 05-22-2007 10:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by riVeRraT, posted 05-24-2007 6:56 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 206 of 303 (402110)
05-24-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by riVeRraT
05-24-2007 6:56 AM


riVeRraT writes:
How can you you know what other people see and understand by their actions?
How can you know any other way?
Example, say a guy curses you out in traffic, you know by his actions what he sees, and understands?
Sure. You know you did something he didn't like.
You can then understand how he got to that point?
I never said anything about "getting to that point". I never claimed that you can learn somebody's whole life history and psychological makeup from his actions.
I said that his actions are the only evidence we have to work with.
Jesus said it first, "By their fruits ye shall know them." Argue with Him.
God has highlighted those things to me. That's why I was saying I can now see why people do things they do.
And that's just your belief. There is no evidence that you can "see why people do things they do" or that God has "highlighted" anything to you.
None of that is a secret between you and the Holy Spirit.
Well that depends. Your visible actions may not be, but the why and the how, might.
Once again, we're only talking about visible actions - evidence. We can only infer the "why" from the visible actions.
But that has little to do with if the actual texts of what you claim to believe in are wrong or right.
You're saying that the texts might actually be 100% perfect and that people do wrong because they misinterpret the texts.
I'm saying that the texts might not be 100% perfect and that people do wrong because they interpret the texts correctly - i.e they do what the texts tell them to do.
I'll let people decide for themselves which position makes more sense.
... just because Buddists may have abetter outwardly apearence (if they do) than Christians, that does not mean that buddism is the way.
It ought to suggest to you that Buddhism is a way - and possibly a better way.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by riVeRraT, posted 05-24-2007 6:56 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by riVeRraT, posted 05-24-2007 8:56 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 210 of 303 (402193)
05-24-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by riVeRraT
05-24-2007 8:56 PM


riVeRraT writes:
... we all act a certain way, based on our experiences, no matter what we belive in.
Our experiences, good or bad, have an effect on our behaviour. That doesn't change the fact that our behaviour is the only objective evidence that anybody has about us. If somebody tells you about his experiences, you have no way of knowing if he's telling the truth.
... how can you explain the hugely varied response you will get from one person to the next.
People just are different. You can't just assume that one person was abused and one was not. Sometimes the one with the bad expereinces will behave better instead of worse.
You can't know everything about a person, and that is why I say, it is what is in their hearts that counts...
But you can't know what's in their hearts.
... and that is what Jesus teaches....
No it isn't. Jesus taught that we will be judged by our actions, that many who say, "Lord, Lord" will not be saved, that many who think they will be saved will not, that many who think they will be condemned will not.
I say your fruits are relative.
Relativity has nothing to do with it. The point is that your fruits are visible.
A tree with fruits in its "heart" is of no value.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by riVeRraT, posted 05-24-2007 8:56 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2007 11:31 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 214 of 303 (402425)
05-26-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by riVeRraT
05-26-2007 11:31 AM


riVeRraT writes:
If somebody tells you about his experiences, you have no way of knowing if he's telling the truth.
First off, some of the times, people need not tell me, God highlights these things to me.
Which is even less reliable. Serial killers often think they have God whispering in their ear too.
It is hard to have this conversation with someone that only wants to deal the objective.
Boo hoo. If you want an easy time of it, go post on a Christian forum.
If we have something objective to deal with, why not use it? We have people's behaviour to show us what's "really" going on inside them, so why bring a subjective element into it?
But one thing that has happened to me, after getting to know the Holy Spirit, is that the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of truth, and ever since then, I am able to discern truth from lies a 1000 times better.
Now that's confirmation bias. (Not to mention hyperbole.)
But you can't know what's in their hearts.
I don't need to know.
And yet you claim you can discern truth from lies.
You could have two people, both serving in a soup kitchen. One is there because they think by doing this "act" it will get them into heaven, the other just wants to help people.
It is what is in their hearts that count.
No it isn't. Both people in the soup kitchen will get to heaven and both for the same reason: they fed the hungry.
Jesus made it very clear that what you do counts. What you claim to believe doesn't.
What's in your heart is worthless unless it shows in what you do.
Your fruits are relative to where you are in life, and what you have been through.
Nope. The fruits on the tree now are what counts. It doesn't matter if the tree survived six forest fires, three wars, eleven droughts and a box social.
Have you read what the Bible says about fruits at all?
quote:
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
No visible (i.e. useful) fruit --> cast into the fire. Pretty @#$%ing clear imagery.
Edited by Ringo, : Spellink.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2007 11:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:50 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 216 of 303 (402630)
05-29-2007 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by riVeRraT
05-28-2007 8:50 PM


riVeRraT writes:
At the end of the day (or more precisly, at the end of your life) there is only one thing on your mind.
How could you possibly know what's on somebody else's mind at the end of their life?
Would you agree that certain people have a gift at reading others?
I don't see any correlation between people who think they can read others and people who can actually "read" others, no.
Where do you think that gift comes from?
Some people are more skilled than others at reading body language, etc. I don't think those skills settle on them from above, if that's what you mean.
If you were lacking that gift, and then in the snap of a finger, you thought you heard from God, and then you suddenly got that gift, wouldn't that raise an eyebrow?
If somebody made that claim to me, it would certainly raise a chuckle.
Remember, we're trying to talk about evidence here. Empty claims don't really cut it.
Truth from lies, is on the outside, what is on their hearts is on the inside.
But the whole "hearts" thing is the question here. All we've heard so far is your claim that you can do some kind of spooky EKG.
If you really can "read" people's hearts, where is the evidence of that?
What I see in this verse is that even though they drove out demons, and performed miracles, which by some standard could be considered "good fruits" are not going to heaven.
The reason the self-proclaimed-prophets and the casters-out-of-demons and the readers-of-hearts don't go to heaven is because their standard of good fruits is wrong.
Whosoever feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, visits the prisoner - those are the ones who go to heaven. Those are the good fruits, not the spooky ones.
quote:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
No spookiness mentioned there.
(7) Even the best gifts that exist are nothing without godliness.
That's not what Jesus said.
... if you are serving soup, to please yourself only, then you are ignoring God.
And that doesn't matter. It's the soup that matters.
I feel, and so do the people in my church, that being saved is a continuing, growing process. I don't even like the word "saved", but you know what I am talking about.
I agree completely.
If the tree was burned in a fire, and was unable to produce fruits for a few years, does make it a bad tree?
It makes it a useless tree. And we're not talking about having one or two bad seasons. When it's determined that the tree is producing no good fruit, that tree is chopped down and thrown into the fire.
Some trees, are just unable to produce good fruits, for valid reasons. Doesn't make them bad trees.
You're missing the point of the story. Nobody's "blaming" the tree. The gardener decides whether the tree is more useful living or dead. Without good fruit, it's more useful as firewood.
Edited by Ringo, : Spelllling.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2007 9:35 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 218 of 303 (402661)
05-29-2007 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by riVeRraT
05-29-2007 9:35 AM


riVeRraT writes:
If you really can "read" people's hearts, where is the evidence of that?
The evidence of that would be in meeting the friends I have made over the last 4 years. And to ask them what kind of a person I am, and how I care about them.
That's just anecdotal.
It means no more than me telling you that I see orbs flying around my living room.
Not only do they say that some will be prophets, and so on, but they to work in those gifts, is to get closer to Christ.
Well, no.
quote:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
It says that some will have those gifts until we all get closer to Christ. It doesn't say that being gifted brings the gifted closer to Christ. Again, "closer to Christ" doesn't mean something spooky. It means more Christ-like in our actions.
Of course the soup matters, as I said, but so does God.
Not according to Jesus. Not at the judgement. The judgement is according to what you do, not who you call "Lord, Lord". It's a simple concept. No reason to make it difficult or spooky.
When it's determined that the tree is producing no good fruit, that tree is chopped down and thrown into the fire.
Reading this, seems to me that is a basis for all condemnation. It is a foundation for all the "wrong" religions out there.
More to the point, it makes the spooky side of Christianity wrong.
You produce good fruit or you go into the fire. Simple.
It doesn't matter if you're an apple tree or a pear tree or a cherry tree. It doesn't matter what's in your heartwood. What matters is what you produce that's useful.
... while I may have been a "good person" all those years, things are much different now.
Different to you. But Jesus said that God only wants you to be a good person.
... if God would have given up on me, I would not be in a position to be doing the things I am able to do now.
The question is: Are the "things" you are able to do now really "better" than the things you were doing when you were a "good person"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2007 9:35 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:51 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 223 of 303 (402853)
05-30-2007 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 9:51 AM


riVeRraT writes:
... the relationships I have made over the years are not anecdotal. They are real, and viable.
When you tell us about those relationships, and when that is all the "evidence" that you have about those relationships - yes, it is definitely anecdotal.
The judgement is according to what you do, not who you call "Lord, Lord".
So then you will have to define John 3:16....
quote:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Believing in Him means doing what He told us to do, not just saying, "I believe." That's exactly what I've been saying.
... and all the other times He says that the only way is through Him.
I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be the "only" way. I'd be glad to discuss that, but I don't think it's on topic here.
Jesus said that God only wants you to be a good person.
So then that goes all the way back to when I said it was all relative.
You are agreeing now?
That depends on what you mean by, "it's all relative". Being a good person is certainly relative to the individual - Donald Trump would have to serve more soup than me to be "good".
But we're talking here about faith and evidence. I'm saying that if you don't do something you don't have real faith. I'm saying we will be judged according to what we do, not what's supposedly "in our hearts".
What does that have to do with being "relative"?
Since God has shown me some of His love, I am able to be more effective.
Being "more effective" isn't the issue. Just being effective - by doing, not by "believing" - is the goal. God is the only judge of your effectiveness.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:19 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 230 of 303 (402961)
05-30-2007 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 9:19 PM


riVeRraT writes:
... doing what He told us to do without believeing in Him, what is that?
That's enough.
(this is a condensed version of the story, and probably missing a few points, but I wrote it to demostrate the relativeness of good fruits)
The evangelist was on the lowest throne because he only "saved many people and introduced them to Christ". I'll repeat this again, since you don't seem to have heard it before: Getting to heaven depends on feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner, etc. Those things are more important than "saving" people or introducing them to Christ.
The bum was on the highest throne because he was trying to give another bum some practical help. (Since he died in the freezing cold, I presume he was trying to save the other bum from the freezing cold.)
... if what is in heart is true, then you will do something.
Plenty of people who are not Christians "do something" for their fellow man. So you must be agreeing that being a Christian is not important. Having what is true in your heart must not have anything to do with being a Christian.
There is no standard of what fruits are good and bad....
Of course there is. You choose the good fruit from the bad at the supermarket. The fruit-picker chooses the good fruit from the bad on the tree. The gardener chooses to nurture the good trees and to destroy the bad trees.
The standard is simple: Is the fruit useful?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:19 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2007 8:09 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 232 of 303 (403016)
05-31-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by riVeRraT
05-31-2007 8:09 AM


riVeRraT writes:
It was Him, that opened that door....
The topic is "Evidence and Faith". There is little (objective) evidence that He even existed, never mind that He opened any doors for you or me.
... the least we could do is respect Him.
Even ignoring the topic and assuming that He does exist, the way to respect Him would be by doing what He said.
... is that introduction to Christ, that is supposed to change your life, so that these things might be enabled in us.
That supposition is worthless in a discussion about evidence.
If they aren't, then you are denying God, IMO.
So what?
I'll repeat this again, since you don't seem to have ever heard it before: Jesus Himself said that we are judged on what we do, not on the beliefs we profess. If you're going to assume that Jesus is real and respect Him, why keep ignoring what He said?
But that person may be a good person his whole life, and all I know is that if I was God, I would let someone like that into heaven, and punish the priest.
Exactly what I've been saying. It's being a good person that counts. Believing in God is irrelevant. "Coming to Christ" is irrelevant.
Comparing fruits of a human, to fruits in the supermarket, isn't fair.
Argue with Jesus. He used the metaphor - if there are no good, useful (visible) fruits, the tree is cut down and cast into the fire.
Is the fruit useful, by who's standard?
God's.
And in case you haven't heard it before, God's standard of good fruit/behaviour is: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, etc.
If they truely thought in their hearts that what they were doing was for the good, then what will happen to them, in your opinion?
Where on God's @#$%ing green earth did you get the idea that a person's own idea of "good fruit" has anything to do with any @#$%ing thing?
What is expected of us is: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prsioner, etc. What is so hard to understand about that?
Those are visible signs that we are "good people". That is the evidence of our faith (and notice that the evidence can be there even if the faith isn't).

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by riVeRraT, posted 05-31-2007 8:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 05-31-2007 1:03 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 234 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2007 10:23 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 237 of 303 (403231)
06-01-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by riVeRraT
06-01-2007 10:23 AM


riVeRraT writes:
... how is it that faith saves us?
The only way faith can "save" you is by prompting you to do something. If you do what God wants you to do because you have faith in God, it's still what you do that's important, not your faith. If you don't have faith in God but still do what He wants, you're still "saved".
It made a huge difference in my life, and I hope what people see on the outside, shows an improvement....
You said you were a "good person" before you became a Christian, so no "improvement" was really necessary. We all need to try to improve every day, but not by any magical "conversion". We need to give up the "let God do it" attitude and examine our own lives. In that sense, "becoming" a Christian can be a downright detriment to improvement.
The evidence in my life has shown that it has.
Back to the topic. The only evidence that means anything is what you do.
How you feel is not evidence.
To bear witness to something is to have seen or heard it.
To bear witness is also to be an uninvolved bystander.
Isn't it better to be a participant than to just watch?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2007 10:23 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 12:27 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 303 (403260)
06-01-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Hyroglyphx
06-01-2007 3:20 PM


Re: I must concur
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
If there is no God, then there is no moral law.
Non sequitur.
Origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. Those are the four big questions we all wrestle with.
Not really.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 250 of 303 (403359)
06-02-2007 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by riVeRraT
06-02-2007 12:27 AM


riVeRraT writes:
If you don't have faith in God but still do what He wants, you're still "saved".
You can prove this, or is this just an opinion?
Haven't you been paying attention at all? Jesus said that those who say, "Lord, Lord" - i.e. those who claim to believe in Him - will not necessarily be saved. He said that those who feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, etc. will be saved. I've mentioned that in just about every post on this thread. It's very clear: faith has nothing to do with salvation.
It just happens, when God chooses it to happen.
Nope. It happens when we choose to do what God wants us to do.
What if the person serving the soup, was only doing it so they could worm their way into the workings of the soup kitchen, because he wanted to steal from that place?
Doesn't matter. The soup still counts.
Now, if somebody is stealing from a soup kitchen, he's taking food away from the hungry - but that math is for God to do, not us.
... you don't see a difference in someone helping others so they can get into heaven, and someone helping others from the goodness of their own heart?
Of course not. The cook's motivation has no effect on the nutritional value of the soup.
Doesn't one seem more geniune than the other?
Doesn't make a @#$%ing bit of difference if the motivation is "genuine". It only matters that the soup is genuine.
You keep equivocating faith with doing nothing.
Not at all. I'm just saying that the faith has no value in itself.
The actions have value with or without the faith.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 12:27 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 6:58 AM ringo has replied
 Message 270 by Equinox, posted 06-04-2007 12:33 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 303 (403394)
06-02-2007 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by riVeRraT
06-02-2007 6:58 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Right claiming to believe in Him, and believing in Him are two different things.
Jesus didn't make a distinction.
Why? Because it's impossible to tell what somebody's "real" beliefs are. The only evidence we have of their beliefs is their actions. That's why neither the profession of belief nor the belief itself has any "saviing" power.
... you are saying that faith doesn't matter.
I want to know where you can say that as a objective thing, instead of a subjective one.
I'm saying that because it's objective. What everybody can see is objective. What one person claims is subjective.
It happens when we choose to do what God wants us to do.
Yes, and no. I was only talking about the initial start-up.
The "initial startup" is when we learn as children to do good instead of bad. It has nothing to do with being possessed by the Holy Spirit or anything like that.
We are not talking about soup at that point anymore.
We are discussing intent.
We're always talking about soup.
Intent is irrelevant. Only God knows our intent. Only God can decide if we gave away enough soup or keep too much for ourselves. Only God knows if potato soup has more saving power than chicken noodle.
What Jesus said and what I've been trying to get through your head is that it's only the soup that counts.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 6:58 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 06-03-2007 7:54 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 265 of 303 (403491)
06-03-2007 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by riVeRraT
06-03-2007 7:54 AM


riVeRraT writes:
... it's impossible to tell what somebody's "real" beliefs are
You mean if there is a God, then HE wouldn't know?
It's impossible for us to tell what anybody's "real" beliefs are - and it's impossible for us to know what God knows or doesn't know.
Not everyone has a fair chance of knowing good from bad in this life ringo.
Knowing good from bad has nothing to do with it. You don't have to have special God-given knowledge of "good from bad" to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the prisoner.
But I believe God can change that for people.
And what you believe is still irrelevant when we're talking about evidence.
Only God can decide if we gave away enough soup or keep too much for ourselves. Only God knows if potato soup has more saving power than chicken noodle.
So intent does count.
No it doesn't. Only the soup counts.
You have no way of knowing what God will decide. You might intend to be the best person you can be and give 80% of your income to the poor - and God might still say to you, "Sorry, riVeRraT, you spent too much on model airplanes. Go to hell." Somebody else might never intend to be good at all, but only give an old coat away because he's too lazy to walk to the garbage - and God might say to him, "One man survived the winter because of you. Welcome to heaven."
You can never know what God will decide so you can never know what counts as "good intentions" and what doesn't. So anything you understand about "intentions" is irrelevant.
It's bewildering how you can be so obstinate in denying what Jesus said.
quote:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
quote:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Nothing about intentions, only actions.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by riVeRraT, posted 06-03-2007 7:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 10:00 AM ringo has replied

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