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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 153 of 303 (400584)
05-15-2007 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by LinearAq
05-15-2007 8:51 AM


Re: Using reason for determining belief validity?
If we are all the "true church" and success rate is not a measure of validity, then does that mean we can believe what we want and still be the "true church"?
I doubt that belief really plays anything more than a motivating purpose in the "True Church".
If not, what is the measure used to determine belief validity? Come let us reason together.
The measure is behavior, what you do, how you relate to others and the world we live in. I tried to cover this in Message 127 and Message 132.
The "True Church" is not judged by flimflam, by miracles, other than by the behavior of its members.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by LinearAq, posted 05-15-2007 8:51 AM LinearAq has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 303 (400749)
05-16-2007 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by everwondered
05-16-2007 2:42 PM


Re: A word of Encouragement.
If you cannot mathematically or scientifically prove that something exists, then it must not exist.
Sorry, but that statement is false.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by everwondered, posted 05-16-2007 2:42 PM everwondered has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 205 of 303 (402099)
05-24-2007 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by riVeRraT
05-24-2007 7:21 AM


How do you do that?
I think being able to distinguish God, from your own personal thoughts helps in your accuracy.
Just how is that done?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by riVeRraT, posted 05-24-2007 7:21 AM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 222 of 303 (402846)
05-30-2007 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 10:01 AM


Re: Subjective Invocations asking for Objective Results
If the person without "Christian faith" is healed, it is so that he may come to know "Christian fiath" or specifically, Jesus.
But that goes against what Jesus himself said on several occasions. Most of the accounts of Jesus miracles are not done to bring people to a state of Faith, but rather out of kindness with no expectation of any return or reward.
Look for example at the stories of Jesus feeding multitudes.
Jesus speaks to the people, usually for hours on end. It is those lectures that are used to transmit the message and the feeding is only incidental. If the miracle of feeding many with little was for the purpose of conversion, then it would have been far more effective just to put on the fish fry and skip the stump speeches.
The miraculous feeding is only known to the cooks, the audience just got the eats.
This is also the point he is making in Nazareth, found in Luke 4.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 10:01 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Equinox, posted 05-30-2007 3:14 PM jar has replied
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:42 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 226 of 303 (402892)
05-30-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Equinox
05-30-2007 3:14 PM


On miracles and other strange things
Jar, you and I just discussed this question (the purpose for Jesus' miracles according to the stories) on another thread I'm pretty sure. (the synoptics portray it as you say, John portrays the opposite, where Jesus does indeed do miracles for conversion purposes).
This thread has pretty much run its course, but I think there is an important point in what you say above.
That is, the Bible is simply NOT consistent, or even meant to be consistent. It is a collection of different stories written over many centuries by people from vastly differing cultures and mores.
I think that is important enough to deserve a thread of its own.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Equinox, posted 05-30-2007 3:14 PM Equinox has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 233 of 303 (403020)
05-31-2007 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by ringo
05-31-2007 12:29 PM


Jesus and Peter
Even ignoring the topic and assuming that He does exist, the way to respect Him would be by doing what He said.
Jesus and Peter covered this very argument. In a threefold comparison to earlier events, Jesus asks Peter if he loves him. When Peter replies "Sure Boss, you know I do." Jesus replies, "Then feed my sheep."
Jesus does not tell him to preach to the sheep, to teach the sheep to respect Jesus, or anything except "Feed them", "Take care of them."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by ringo, posted 05-31-2007 12:29 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2007 10:28 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 236 of 303 (403202)
06-01-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by riVeRraT
06-01-2007 10:28 AM


Re: Jesus and Peter
The point is that he is told to do it.
Jesus doesn't say, "Tell them about me" or "Bring them to me" or "Feed them but give them this tract first", Jesus just says "Feed my sheep".
The reason is irrelevant, it is only the doing that counts.
Jesus whole message is that we should try to do.
It really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2007 10:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 12:16 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 303 (403273)
06-01-2007 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Hyroglyphx
06-01-2007 4:24 PM


The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
By what measure is it right or wrong for a spouse to stray? By what measure do we castigate that man who just butchered his wife and kids?
By the measure of the culture and society.
Such things are either a matter of Law (butchering the wife and kids) which is unrelated to any questions of morality, or of morality (spouse straying) where the measure is the agreement between the parties involved.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-01-2007 4:24 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-01-2007 4:45 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 244 of 303 (403278)
06-01-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Hyroglyphx
06-01-2007 4:45 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
That wouldn't explain how little children, who have know cultural understanding of morality, intrinsically know the difference between right and wrong the world over.
Again, morality is not related to right and wrong. Kids learn right and wrong just as they learn everything else.
Are you saying that butchering your wife and kids is not an immoral act?
Depends on the society and culture.
Its only immoral when everyone is in agreement? Suppose you are married, and your wife is not okay with you cheating. But you decide to cheat because the prostitute thinks there is nothing wrong with it. Are you engaging in an immoral act simply becaused she doesn't want you to? Does your wife have the power to determine morality?
In that case there is no agreement between the spouses. There you have a conflict of differing moral standards and evidence that morality is NOT an absolute.
If the husband also believes that infidelity is immoral, he will likely feel he has done an immoral act.
However, if it was in a different culture, era or society, the percetions of morality/immorality would be entirely different.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-01-2007 4:45 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-01-2007 5:13 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 246 of 303 (403284)
06-01-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Hyroglyphx
06-01-2007 5:13 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
So if morality is based on culture, then why do you indict President Bush as being "evil" if he is merely a pawn to what his cultured doled out? You hold him to a very high standard. Why not hold everyone to the same standard?
Because by the standards of our society he is evil. Evil is not necessarily immoral. Good and bad, right and wrong, legal and illegal and moral and immoral are four entirely different concepts.
President Bush is evil for many reasons, including IMHO High Crimes and Misdemeanors.
Would it be acceptable that Americans are culturally inclined to spread war wherever it goes, and yet, call Americans evil for doing what its culture has established for it?
While historically we have been the most successful conquering nation so far, conquering and holding territories far more successfully than almost any other nation with the exception of the Chinese, that does not mean that it is either acceptable legally.
Morally, I must admit, the US has seen conquest and domination as morally justified and has acted on that belief.
Yes, by MY moral standards I can point to that and say it is immoral.
Wrong. We simply have one spouse trying to subvert that absolute. Everybody knows that marriage should be sacred-- that its a unit of commitment. If anything, its society that tries to undermine that which is absolute by coming up with clever ways of getting around it.
Uh, bullshit!
So then there should be no outside influence? If a family determines for themselves that its okay to engage in incest, then why do outside agencies intervene on behalf of the children? Is it not because its immoral to subject children to that?
So many fallacies in so few words. Amazing.
No, the outside agencies do not step in because it is immoral. They step in because it is illegal. They step in because our society has decided that children below the arbitrary age of consent cannot enter into agreements related to sex. In other situations, for example if a 22 year old brother and sister decided to have sex, no one steps in because both parties are above the age of consent.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-01-2007 5:13 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-04-2007 5:40 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 303 (403361)
06-02-2007 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by riVeRraT
06-02-2007 12:16 AM


Re: Jesus and Peter
Jesus asks him, do you love me?
If you do, then.
Right, do it.
Peter was one way before meeting Jesus, then after meeting Him, he became another way. That is what Jesus does for us. That is what the Holy Spirit does for us.
Irrelevant. All that counts is what Peter does. It has nothing to do with Holy Spirit or any other woo-woo.
All that counts is what Peter does.
I am not saying there is no quality in being a good person without God, but I am sure, all things considered, that a good person, can only become more good after meeting Jesus.
Irrelevant. Two people do good, one just because it is the right thing to do, the other after some metaphysical experience.
All that counts is what they do.
The ultimate love in the universe, is the one that comes from God. Once knowing that love, you have a tool at your disposal, if you so choose to use it.
Yada, yada.
Trot it out and put it on the table for all to examine.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 12:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 7:01 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 256 of 303 (403391)
06-02-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by riVeRraT
06-02-2007 7:01 AM


Holy Spirit
I am here, and it is out there.
You being here is evidence of you being here. "It is out there" is nothing, worthless.
Read Acts two, and then you can see just what the power of the Holy Spirit can do to people, and how many recieved help through those actions, driven by the Holy Spirit.
That is irrelevant. People received help. The motivation is irrelevant. The help of the Holy Spirit is irrelevant.
What is important is that people received help.
You still don't get it.
Peter actually doing stuff was the evidence that he loved Jesus.
Saying he loved Jesus didn't count.
Bringing folk to Jesus didn't count.
Telling folk about Jesus didn't count.
Feeding them did.
Feeding.
If he feed them because they were hungry it counted.
Regardless of the motivation, regardless of the reason, it is the acts that count.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by riVeRraT, posted 06-02-2007 7:01 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by riVeRraT, posted 06-03-2007 7:51 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 303 (403473)
06-03-2007 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by riVeRraT
06-03-2007 7:51 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
Subjective evidence, is still evidence.
Asserting "It is out there" is not evidence.
No it's not, and all we can do is agree to disagree on that one. This is why when I talk to you, I do not think you have experienced the same thing as me, and that is fine.
Of course I have not experienced the same thing as you. But you still have never been able to explain how you identify contact from God or the Holy Spirit. You just keep making worthless assertions.
Oh, so now you are God, and can determine if God wants people to love Him or not?
How utterly silly. So I guess you are now going to fall back on the "God knows" gambit.
Who cares if God Knows. That is irrelevant. We are trying to determine how YOU can know or I can know, and all we have to go by is behavior, what people do.
If God truely does change lives, and I believe He does, then bringing people to Jesus does count, so long as their actions that follow are commendable.
Sheesh. How is it different if the never come to Jesus but behave exactly the same?
If Peter didn't love Jesus, then he might not have done as many a good thing as he did. His life wouldn't have been changed.
The motivation counts, and the reasons count.
How does motive count. If Peter didn't love Jesus he might have done more good things.
jar, do you even believe in Jesus?
Where do you come off quoting bible verses?
More of your nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by riVeRraT, posted 06-03-2007 7:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 06-03-2007 10:06 AM jar has replied
 Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 10:10 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 303 (403479)
06-03-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
06-03-2007 10:06 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
I don't follow the logic. How on earth could Peter have done more good by not loving Jesus?
Simply by doing one more good thing than he did.
Because no one has demonstrated that it requires loving Jesus to do good. In fact, we can see many examples of people doing good that are not Christians.
The claim that rR made was simply irrelevant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 06-03-2007 10:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 06-03-2007 10:15 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 271 of 303 (403610)
06-04-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 10:10 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
"More of your nonsense."
and
"yada yada"
Are not viable responses to have a discussion with.
They are summaries of what you presented. You still avoid answering any of the questions raised.
You are not holding a discussion, you are preaching.
I believe I know God (on the level I can know Him) and I believe there is no way for me to prove it to you. Even if my actions are all good, and great, or whatever. It is you who must seek Him.
How is that relevant to the question? Why do you say that when it refutes the passage you quoted?
Two people do exactly the same things, one alleges it is for the God he creates called Jesus, the other for the God he creates called Sharrie.
The acts are exactly the same. Jesus said that he would value the acts the same?
If I know God's love, and then share that love with others, then God may choose to use me to reach out to a person.
How do you know it is God?
What does reaching out to a person even mean?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 10:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 2:51 PM jar has not replied

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