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Author Topic:   Cancer Survivors
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 121 of 325 (405311)
06-12-2007 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Buzsaw
06-11-2007 11:15 PM


Re: Double Blind Study
quote:
I've furnished the info for RAZD to do what he wishes about. Your questions are thread topics in themselves and I haven't the time to go into all the question topics you raise. My statements are my opinion based on my experience with alternatives in general as to how they've helped me and my family avoid the MDs nearly all my life, in the 70s now, still physically active and productive.
I've observed and heard about scores of others who have likewise been benefited.
Here's the thing buz.
Unless you can show me the evidence, your claims mean nothing. Absolutely nothing. You have given no reason whatsoever for anyone to believe you.
You make claim after claim after claim but never, ever support them with actual evidence when asked. I am just glad that RAZD has a good head on his shoulders and isn't likely to just believe your vague assurances and baseless, quack health claims.
You are full of hot air, my friend, and are lazy to boot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Buzsaw, posted 06-11-2007 11:15 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 122 of 325 (405312)
06-12-2007 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
06-12-2007 12:05 AM


Re: Double Blind Study
quote:
I'm not aware of any, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that healthy natural eating and habits win out over the conventional diet full of chemical, drugs and junk food.
By what method was it discovered that certain foods were more nutritious than others, and that certain foods contain anti-cancer compounds?
What method of inquiry was used, Buz?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 06-12-2007 12:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by DorfMan, posted 06-12-2007 11:31 AM nator has replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 123 of 325 (405341)
06-12-2007 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by nator
06-12-2007 7:51 AM


Re: Double Blind Study
quote:
By what method was it discovered that certain foods were more nutritious than others, and that certain foods contain anti-cancer compounds?
What method of inquiry was used, Buz?
Is it not logical to determine that certain foods are more healthful than others? Yes, healthful food makes you fart and gives new meaning to togetherness, but you can most certainly avoid the carcinogens in animal flesh and many additives. There is so much time and effort taken about diet and health, there must be reasons.
I don't know if RAZ has spoken with a hospital dietician, but it won't hurt for him to do so. We are what we eat, you must have noticed.
Forbidden
As for Buz? I'm with him on taking care about what I eat.
Edited by DorfMan, : don't need the link twice

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by nator, posted 06-12-2007 7:51 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by RAZD, posted 06-12-2007 12:23 PM DorfMan has not replied
 Message 129 by nator, posted 06-13-2007 6:43 PM DorfMan has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 124 of 325 (405349)
06-12-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by DorfMan
06-12-2007 11:31 AM


Re: Double Blind Study
I don't know if RAZ has spoken with a hospital dietician,...
Every day here, in planning meals for the next day based on needs and appetite.
Is it not logical to determine that certain foods are more healthful than others?
Yes, but healthful for aspect (A) may not be healthful for aspect (B), and some people may be affected different from other (think allergies). This makes holistic problematical.
thanks
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by DorfMan, posted 06-12-2007 11:31 AM DorfMan has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 325 (405443)
06-12-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by crashfrog
06-12-2007 12:53 AM


Re: SDAs Live Longer
Californian Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 8.9 years longer than other Californian men. Adventist women in California live an average of 7.5 years longer than other women in that state.10
Dutch Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 8.9 years longer than other Dutch men. Adventist women in Holland live an average of 3.7 years longer than other women in that country.11
Norwegian Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 4.2 years longer than other Norwegian men. Adventist women in Norway live an average of 1.9 years longer than other Norwegian women.12
Polish Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 9.5 years longer than other Polish men. Adventist women in Poland live an average of 4.5 years longer than other women in that nation.13
These findings have caught the attention of other researchers and government officials. T. Oberlin of Harvard University, speaking of the Adventist advantage, stated, “Such an increase in life expectancy at these adult ages is greater than all of the gains in life expectancy made in the past 60 years in this country as a result of all the advances in medical skills and knowledge, plus innumerable improvements of the environment in which man lives.”
In 1980, Sidney Katz, a Canadian official, reviewed the data on the benefits of the Adventist lifestyle and said, “I’ve got some advice on how to improve the health of the Canadians, and at the same time, cut billions of dollars off our annual health costs. I think we should study the lifestyle of adherents of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and then explore ways and means of persuading the public to emulate the Adventists in at least some ways.”
Page not found — Dialogue

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2007 12:53 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 06-13-2007 12:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 127 by molbiogirl, posted 06-13-2007 2:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 128 by RAZD, posted 06-13-2007 6:10 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 126 of 325 (405463)
06-13-2007 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
06-12-2007 11:14 PM


Re: SDAs Live Longer
What other groups, though? Just other religions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Buzsaw, posted 06-12-2007 11:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 127 of 325 (405470)
06-13-2007 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
06-12-2007 11:14 PM


Re: SDAs Live Longer
Here are the cites from the article Buz pointed out.
10. The Adventist Health Study, School of Health, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, California, 1978.
11. J. Berkel and F. DeWaard, “Mortality Pattern and Life Expectancy of Seventh-day Adventists in the Netherlands,” International Journal of Epidemiology 12 (1983):455-459.
12. H. Waaler and P. F. Hjort, “Hoyere levealder hos Norske Adventister 1960-1977: Er budskap om livstil og hels? (Low Mortality Among Norwegian Seventh-day Adventists, 1960-1977: A Message on Lifestyle and Health),” Tedsskr Nor Laegeforen 101 (1981): 623-627.
13. W. Jedrychowski, B. Tobiasz-Adamczyk, A. Olma, and P. Gradziliewicz, “Survival Rates Among Seventh-day Adventists Compared With the General Population in Poland,” Scandinavian Journal of Socialised Medicine, 13 (1985): 49-52.
Here's the abstract for the second cite.
It appears the authors concluded that "no cigarette smoking" was the reason SDA live longer (with a smidge of less colon cancer thrown in).
I'd like to note that in the 24 years since this paper was published, it has been cited 3 times.
The first cite is not to be found in pubmed.
This cite, however, is found in pubmed: Serum cholesterol levels of Seventh-day Adventists.
Nothing special in these results. SDA not so different from ordinary folks.
And there is this cite in pubmed: Blood pressure in Seventh-day Adventist vegetarians.
Again. Nothing special. SDA bp was less than ordinary folks, but the authors don't have any specific reason why.
It appeared unlikely that these differences could be explained by differences in alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee or egg consumption, socioeconomic status or physical activity.
The third cite, again. Nowhere to be found.
However, this cite is a reprint of an American Journal of Epidemiology article entitled: Coronary Risk Factors in Norwegian Seventh-day Adventists: A Study of 247 Seventh-day Adventists and Matched Controls.
No difference in men, some in women.
The fourth cite can be found here.
SDA men and women live longer. This one held up to its promise.
But I also found this: Cancer incidence in norwegian seventh-day adventists 1961 to 1986. Is the cancer-life-style association overestimated?
Nada. Bupkis. SDA no better than general population.
I'm sure I could keep looking, but so far, the evidence is far from overwhelming. I would even venture to say inconclusive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Buzsaw, posted 06-12-2007 11:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 128 of 325 (405487)
06-13-2007 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
06-12-2007 11:14 PM


Re: SDAs Live Longer
On average. What about the maximum lives? What you could be seeing is a product of statistics (large diverse sample versus small homogeneous sample) rather than life-style. To make a fair comparison you would have to compare it to people with similar health regimens (re smoking and drinking say), and you should also compare it to other religious groups (buddhist monks, catholic nuns, etc).
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Buzsaw, posted 06-12-2007 11:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 129 of 325 (405576)
06-13-2007 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by DorfMan
06-12-2007 11:31 AM


Re: Double Blind Study
quote:
Is it not logical to determine that certain foods are more healthful than others?
Sure.
But how do we figure that out? What method do we use? How do we discover how and why certain compounds (like antioxidants) found in some foods tend to prevent cancer and other ailments?
Some populations consume lots of what we in the west would consider "bad for us", yet have a longer life expectancy, and generally less disease. I've mentioned the Okinowans to you before, some of the most long-lived and disease-free people on earth also consume pork nearly every day. The French smoke a lot and eat a lot of saturated fat as a percentage of their diet, but have less heart disease than Americans. The Swiss eat twice as much chocolate per year as Americans, yet their incidence of diabetes is far, far less that Americans'.
Deciding what food is "bad" and what is "good", and in what proportions one should eat anything, if at all, is a rather complex equation.
quote:
Yes, healthful food makes you fart and gives new meaning to togetherness, but you can most certainly avoid the carcinogens in animal flesh and many additives.
There are carcinogens in certain vegetables too, you know. And saturated fats and other compounds known to be detrimental to health.
We evolved to eat animal protein. That's why strict vegans usually have to take supplemental synthetic vitamins to get what their bodies require (vegans have a hard time getting B vitamins).
quote:
There is so much time and effort taken about diet and health, there must be reasons.
It's the other way around, you know.
The reason people take so much time and effort with their diet and health is because science has been steadily teasing out the biochemistry, bit by bit, and has then informed the practical nutrition and medical fields.
quote:
As for Buz? I'm with him on taking care about what I eat.
I take care in what I eat, too, but I do not base my food choices upon myth and misinformation like you and he

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by DorfMan, posted 06-12-2007 11:31 AM DorfMan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 06-17-2007 11:32 PM nator has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 130 of 325 (405775)
06-14-2007 8:44 PM


Half-way House
I'm unplugged and out of the slammer and ensconced at my half-way house, starting a 30 day period of isolation and observation to see how my recovery continues. Tomorrow I can start walks in the neighborhood (with mask and glove for protection).
I'm feeling pretty good, though not my full self yet (one flight of stairs bags me)
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Asgara, posted 06-14-2007 8:54 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 132 by DorfMan, posted 06-15-2007 11:25 AM RAZD has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 131 of 325 (405778)
06-14-2007 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by RAZD
06-14-2007 8:44 PM


Re: Half-way House
Great to hear RAZD!! Keep it up and you'll be back on the bike in no time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2007 8:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 132 of 325 (405872)
06-15-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by RAZD
06-14-2007 8:44 PM


Re: Half-way House
quote:
I'm unplugged and out of the slammer and ensconced at my half-way house, starting a 30 day period of isolation and observation to see how my recovery continues. Tomorrow I can start walks in the neighborhood (with mask and glove for protection).
Do you feel a bit like Jacko?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2007 8:44 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by RAZD, posted 06-15-2007 2:40 PM DorfMan has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 133 of 325 (405925)
06-15-2007 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by DorfMan
06-15-2007 11:25 AM


Re: Half-way House
more like ... acoustic ... in touch ... and Havin a Party ..
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by DorfMan, posted 06-15-2007 11:25 AM DorfMan has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 325 (406216)
06-17-2007 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by nator
06-13-2007 6:43 PM


Re: B Vits Needn't Come From Meat Or Suppliments
schraf writes:
We evolved to eat animal protein. That's why strict vegans usually have to take supplemental synthetic vitamins to get what their bodies require (vegans have a hard time getting B vitamins).
That's just not true, madear. Brown rice, whole grain cereals, soybeans & other legumes, potatoes, peanuts, brewer's yeast, peas, green leafy vegies, sweet corn, berries, oranges & other citrus, nuts & seeds all are sources of B vits sufficient enough to not require any suppliments at all. Btw, I'm quite sure that none of our B vit supplements are synthetic. According to the labels, they are derived from extracts of plants. We purposefully avoid synthetic vitamin suppliments.
ABE: I'm sure cows & deer get plenty of B vits from grass & whatever plant food they are able to consume. That makes it nice. Tataway they don't need to consume some of their offspring or stomp field mice for their Bs.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.
Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by nator, posted 06-13-2007 6:43 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by RAZD, posted 06-18-2007 3:24 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 135 of 325 (406232)
06-18-2007 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
06-17-2007 11:32 PM


Re: B Vits Needn't Come From Meat Or Suppliments
Btw, I'm quite sure that none of our B vit supplements are synthetic. According to the labels, they are derived from extracts of plants. We purposefully avoid synthetic vitamin suppliments.
Irrelevant. They are still concentrated far more than found in foods, even the ones you list. Of course eating bugs would help increase the B vit in your diet, and is one of the things that primates and apes (and aborigines) do. You would not need the B vit supplements from any source if diet were sufficient.
I'm sure cows & deer get plenty of B vits from grass & whatever plant food they are able to consume.
Irrelevant: we don't eat grass and cannot process it in our stomachs the way cows and deer do.
We are, however, neither carnivorous nor herbivorous, but omnivorous. Chimps are occasional meat eaters and will hunt for it.
Americans may eat too much meat, but meat is a part of the normal human diet and has been for some time.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 06-17-2007 11:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Buzsaw, posted 06-18-2007 11:21 PM RAZD has replied

  
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