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Author Topic:   Adam was created on the 3rd day
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 151 of 233 (412869)
07-26-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Mikael Fivel
07-26-2007 1:58 PM


Creature and Man
Greetings Mikael,
There is nowhere in the third day that mentions or implies the creation of man.
This question has been addressed a number of times. Feel free to respond to what I have said in messages 13, 37, 73 and 119.
Also, the note the distinct difference between Creature and Man does not imply that Man is animal.
Don't know where I have suggested that Man is animal, but both Man created on the third day and sixth are in God's likeness. This distinguishes them from animals. However, both man and animal are living souls. "Souls" is translated as "creature" in Gen 1:28. So when we see the sixth day man given rule over "every living creature that moves on the ground", and in fact the whole earth, this includes man created on the third day.
The way the sixth day man rules over the earth, over everything that is in it including our old sinful self, is by being created in Christ Jesus. We reign with Him.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Mikael Fivel, posted 07-26-2007 1:58 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Mikael Fivel, posted 07-26-2007 3:38 PM graft2vine has replied
 Message 154 by IamJoseph, posted 07-30-2007 8:34 AM graft2vine has not replied

  
Mikael Fivel
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 03-23-2007


Message 152 of 233 (412872)
07-26-2007 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by graft2vine
07-26-2007 3:12 PM


Re: Creature and Man
"Genesis 1 and 2 are of the same order. One fills in the gaps of the other. What Genesis 1 does is establish the order of when the creation of things were completed... often through the use of "it was good". Adam was formed on the third day, but his creation was not complete... he was an unfinished vessel."
you reference no scripture that points to your implication that Adam was created in two steps. Also, you made no scriptural evidence to support him being created on the third day in any step, other than whole, at all. The third day is, in both chapters one and two, the day in which God created habitation.
Gen 1:9-13
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning ” the third day.
NIV
There is no mention of human life till day six.
The beginning of the second chapter is reviewing what was created and not in any specific order, putting things where they should be, but still *after* it was created. Basically, as if God were making sure things were in order before setting all His creation in motion. I see what you're saying about him being Created and Formed as two seperate stages, but it's not the third day.
The reason why i say "before setting all his creation in motion" is because if you read the last portion of Genesis 1 right through to the middle of chapter 2, it's basically comparable to making a computer:
you assemble the parts in their correct order and place them in their slots. but then you have to plug it in and set it in motion.
Chapter 2:7 restates that God created the man, but adds the detail of him being created from dust (because chapter one didn't say that), but also states how God puts him in motion. It doesn't say that was his second step of creation.
Edited by Mikael Fivel, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by graft2vine, posted 07-26-2007 3:12 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by graft2vine, posted 07-30-2007 2:40 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 153 of 233 (413280)
07-30-2007 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by graft2vine
07-28-2006 7:28 PM


quote:
Creation order:
1. Heavens, including sun, moon and stars.
I too see the galaxies in the beginning, while the sun and moon's luminosity appears later (in its due time).
quote:
2. Earth, the separation of the land and seas.
An important point, which is often disregarded. The 'separation' factor also says why we cannot determine anything pre-creation. This is a barrier marking a treshold, and impacts all things on all levels (light/darkness, day/night, man/woman, etc) - namely the connectivity of all things from one source, is also 'separated' - a treshold which cannot be voluntarilly crossed. This is vindicated.
quote:
3. Hydrologic cycle begins, rain.
Disagree. Though the texts is very exacting and must be 'deciphered' as one would a hedy math treatise - there is another view here. That vegetation came first in its static form (inactive), but became dynamic (activated) with the advent of rain; and the same holds for all entities listed in ch 1. This is based on the concept expressed in the metaphor, 'THE TABLE IS SET AND READY FOR ITS GUESTS' (an ancient kabalistic premise). The rains per se could not effect vegetation - unless vegetation was already created in a manner which was receptive to the rain's attributes - and vice versa. IOW, vegetation and its 'sprouting' (the term used in genesis to indicate activation)- would obviously not depend on rains per se - rather, each cell in vegetation's structure had to recognise and be receptive to the attributes contained in the rains - else nothing would happen. Either of these products on Mars would not perform the same way.Thus the texts says, 'NOW (meaning although vegetation was at hand) - NOTHING GREW - THEN A MIST ROSE UP AND THE RAINS CAME'; this is a reference to static vegetation, but comprehensively ready to meet RAIN - and vice verse. The intergration factor applies!
quote:
4. Flesh man created from the ground(in God's likeness).
Disagree. Humans are listed as the final creation act (vindicated), while the previous entities all represent what humans would require to subsist. Humans are a microcosm of all other entities, with the term 'dust' being appropriate here. Eg: man requires light, darkness, water, land - the seperation of them; vegetation, fish, birds and animals for domestic and consumption purposes. 'The table is set' applies.
quote:
11. God rests, have you entered His rest? (There is no closing of day 7)
Here, rest means 'ceased' creation (closure); humans are the last entity created. This also means, all that was required for the universe to function, has ended, and nothing else is needed save for each created entity's due time appearing. The latter includes knowledge - which is never out of its due time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by graft2vine, posted 07-28-2006 7:28 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by graft2vine, posted 08-07-2007 4:58 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 154 of 233 (413282)
07-30-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by graft2vine
07-26-2007 3:12 PM


Re: Creature and Man
Grafttovine - BTW, Hi and wlecome.
Re:
quote:
Don't know where I have suggested that Man is animal, but both Man created on the third day and sixth are in God's likeness. This distinguishes them from animals. However, both man and animal are living souls. "Souls" is translated as "creature" in Gen 1:28. So when we see the sixth day man given rule over "every living creature that moves on the ground", and in fact the whole earth, this includes man created on the third day.
It appears logical that even man was created in a potential, static form, and made dynamic in the next chapter, as with vegetation; man (generic adam) is activated to dynamic life with the breath of life: "AND HE BECAME A *LIVING* SOUL' (adam becomes a Pronoun).
The days in the first chapter are not 24-hour days, but epochs of time (pre-sun luminosity periods). Luminosity appears after the sun's creation, namely in day 4 - which are cosmic days, as opposed earthly days. This allows for speech endowed humans to be 6000 years old, and the universe being many billions of years old, with no discrepencies with protoypes of humans.

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 Message 151 by graft2vine, posted 07-26-2007 3:12 PM graft2vine has not replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 155 of 233 (413372)
07-30-2007 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Mikael Fivel
07-26-2007 3:38 PM


Re: Creature and Man
Hi Mikael,
you reference no scripture that points to your implication that Adam was created in two steps. Also, you made no scriptural evidence to support him being created on the third day in any step, other than whole, at all.
Not so. If you read through, I have presented scriptural support throughout this thread. In message 13 I referenced Jeremiah and 1 Corinthians speaking of a first and second vessel, a first and last Adam.
The third day is, in both chapters one and two, the day in which God created habitation.
Agreed. This is good that you acknowledge that the habitation created in Genesis 2 is on the third day. However, later you suggest that Genesis 2 was after everything was created.
Using the same logic of building the parts of the computer and then putting it together: In chapter 2, God creates man, then creates the garden... that is their order given. Then God places man in the garden, putting man in his "slot". Adam is then "set in motion" by dressing and keeping the garden.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Mikael Fivel, posted 07-26-2007 3:38 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 07-30-2007 2:51 PM graft2vine has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 233 (413374)
07-30-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by graft2vine
07-30-2007 2:40 PM


Re: Creature and Man
graft2vine writes:
In message 13 I referenced Jeremiah and 1 Corinthians speaking of a first and second vessel, a first and last Adam.
In Message 107, I pointed out that the "last Adam" refers to Jesus - and you never responded.
The "first Adam", of course, refers to the only Adam mentioned in Genesis - created on Day Six.
Edited by Ringo, : Spalling.

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This message is a reply to:
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graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 157 of 233 (413384)
07-30-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
04-25-2007 10:19 PM


Hi Ringo,
My apologies for missing this response.
Within the context of Corinthians, I believe the first Adam not only refers to Adam, but also to all of us. The first Adam is defined as being of the earth, and just as Adam we are all of the earth.
It is the same with the last Adam. Yes the last Adam is Jesus, but also refers to everyone born of Him. Anyone born of the heavenly is the last Adam.
He represents a new beginning, a spiritual beginning as compared to the fleshly beginning represented by the "first Adam".
And when is that new beginning? Why not "In the beginning" when God made man in His image? His image is Christ, who is of the heavenly. When God makes man in His image, He is making man of the heavenly as opposed to the earthly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 04-25-2007 10:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 07-30-2007 4:48 PM graft2vine has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 158 of 233 (413386)
07-30-2007 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by graft2vine
07-30-2007 4:37 PM


graft2vine writes:
And when is that new beginning? Why not "In the beginning" when God made man in His image?
The new beginning, initiated by the last Adam, cannot possibly be before He came to earth. The new beginning of the individual has nothing to do with the beginning of the world.
His image is Christ, who is of the heavenly.
No. God's image is man, the earthly man created on Day Six, as Genesis plainly says.
When God makes man in His image, He is making man of the heavenly as opposed to the earthly.
God made man in His image on the sixth day of creation. Remaking man in His "spiritual image" has nothing to do with the earthly creation of Adam.
Seriously, how can you justify flat-out contradicting what the Bible says?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by graft2vine, posted 07-30-2007 4:37 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by graft2vine, posted 07-30-2007 5:25 PM ringo has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 159 of 233 (413391)
07-30-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by ringo
07-30-2007 4:48 PM


ringo writes:
The new beginning, initiated by the last Adam, cannot possibly be before He came to earth. The new beginning of the individual has nothing to do with the beginning of the world.
Well, the beginning and the end of the world. God declared the end from the beginning.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
The making of man in the image of God in Genesis is prophetic, speaking of the time of Christ.
No. God's image is man, the earthly man created on Day Six, as Genesis plainly says.
Jesus is the image of God:
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Genesis does not plainly say that the man created on the sixth day was earthly. No mention of man having anything to do with the earth in chapter 1.
Seriously, how can you justify flat-out contradicting what the Bible says?
What may appear as a contradiction to you, does not to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 07-30-2007 4:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 07-30-2007 5:45 PM graft2vine has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 160 of 233 (413392)
07-30-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by graft2vine
07-30-2007 5:25 PM


graft2vine writes:
The making of man in the image of God in Genesis is prophetic, speaking of the time of Christ.
Nonsense. There's no hint of "prophecy" in Genesis 1. It's a plain, straightforward narrative.
Genesis does not plainly say that the man created on the sixth day was earthly.
Everything created on the sixth day was earthly - the cattle, the creeping things, the beasts of the earth. There is nothing in the plain text to suggest that anything created on the sixth day was not earthly.
No mention of man having anything to do with the earth in chapter 1.
Nor any mention of anything not being earthly. Nor any mention at all af man before the sixth day.
If there is "no mention" to the contrary, you have to take the most sensible reading: that there were no men at all before Day Six and that the men created on Day Six were as earthly as everything else created on Day Six.
What may appear as a contradiction to you, does not to me.
That's the problem here. By slicing and dicing the text to suit your hare-brained purpose, you're not dealing with the contradictions at all.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by graft2vine, posted 07-30-2007 5:25 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by graft2vine, posted 07-30-2007 6:20 PM ringo has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 161 of 233 (413397)
07-30-2007 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
07-30-2007 5:45 PM


ringo writes:
Nonsense. There's no hint of "prophecy" in Genesis 1. It's a plain, straightforward narrative.
Then what does "declaring the end from the beginning" mean to you?
Everything created on the sixth day was earthly - the cattle, the creeping things, the beasts of the earth. There is nothing in the plain text to suggest that anything created on the sixth day was not earthly.
Just because the cattle and what not are earthly does not mean you can automatically assume man is also earthly. Even though they both occur on the sixth day, they are completely separate creations.
Nor any mention of anything not being earthly.
The image of God is not earthly, but heavenly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 07-30-2007 5:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 07-30-2007 6:40 PM graft2vine has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 162 of 233 (413399)
07-30-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by graft2vine
07-30-2007 6:20 PM


graft2vine writes:
Then what does "declaring the end from the beginning" mean to you?
It doesn't refer to the beginning, i.e. Genesis. Notice that Isaiah said, "from ancient times". He was refering to prophecy in general, not saying that Genesis 1 was prophecy.
Just because the cattle and what not are earthly does not mean you can automatically assume man is also earthly.
When man is mentioned in the same breath with earthly things and there is no hint whatsoever that he is not earthly, yes you can assume that man is earthly too.
Even though they both occur on the sixth day, they are completely separate creations.
Nothing in the text indicates that they are "separate creations".
The image of God is not earthly, but heavenly.
God is heavenly. His image is earthly.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by graft2vine, posted 07-30-2007 6:20 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by graft2vine, posted 07-31-2007 4:40 PM ringo has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 163 of 233 (413601)
07-31-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by ringo
07-30-2007 6:40 PM


ringo writes:
It doesn't refer to the beginning, i.e. Genesis.
Genesis 1 is "the beginning", "from ancient times" is all inclusive. I don't think you can exclude Genesis 1 from that, saying there is no possibility of prophecy in it.
Nothing in the text indicates that they are "separate creations".
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
"it was good" indicates that this is a completion of one part of creation. On the same day God picks up with the creation of something else, the vegetation. You can't say that the creation of land and sea are the same creation as the vegetation.
Same day, different creations.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Same situation. You can't say that the creation of animals is the same creation as man.
Same day, different creations. Not in the same breath.
God is heavenly. His image is earthly.
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
God is heavenly
image of heavenly = image of God
image of God is heavenly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 07-30-2007 6:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 07-31-2007 5:36 PM graft2vine has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 164 of 233 (413618)
07-31-2007 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by graft2vine
07-31-2007 4:40 PM


graft2vine writes:
Genesis 1 is "the beginning", "from ancient times" is all inclusive. I don't think you can exclude Genesis 1 from that, saying there is no possibility of prophecy in it.
I didn't say there's no possibility of prophecy in Genesis 1.
There's no sign of prophecy in Genesis 1.
You can't say that the creation of land and sea are the same creation as the vegetation.
That doesn't follow at all. God saying "it was good" is in no way an indication of a "different" creation.
You can't say that the creation of animals is the same creation as man.
Of course I can, and I do. There was only one creation, it took six days and man was created on Day Six. That's very plain in the text. Your embellishments change nothing.
God is heavenly
image of heavenly = image of God
image of God is heavenly.
Man is earthly - made of dust.
Man is made in the image of God.
Image of God is earthly.
-------------
Try reading what the text says instead of burying it in fiction.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by graft2vine, posted 07-31-2007 4:40 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by graft2vine, posted 07-31-2007 6:10 PM ringo has replied

  
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 165 of 233 (413630)
07-31-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
07-31-2007 5:36 PM


ringo writes:
Of course I can, and I do. There was only one creation, it took six days and man was created on Day Six.
You could say it was all one creation, but God created both heavenly things and earthly things.
Man is earthly - made of dust.
Man is made in the image of God.
Image of God is earthly.
You are skipping over some points in the text. Namely that the natural (earthly) man dies, and is raised a spiritual man. It is the spiritual man that is made in God's image.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 07-31-2007 5:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 07-31-2007 6:28 PM graft2vine has replied

  
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