God caused or uncaused?

Hi Rob,
Let me give this circle a go.Draw a circle on a piece of paper, name the circle eternity.At 9:00 put a mark and name it beginning of time as we know it.At 9:05 put another mark and name it the end of time as we know it.Time is just a little space in eternity that man exists in.Time is controled by day and night.Before time as we know it there was only day.After time as we know it there will be only day.As far as God is concerned the entire circle all of eternity is just one great big now.I hope I didn't muddy the water too much.

Infinite perfection
By Robert S. LockettPsalm 119; 96 To all perfection I see a limit; but your commands are boundless (NIV).Many perceive the idea of an absolute reality or divine way as limiting the options of existence and thereby harming objectivity. Law is seen as a confine rather than a cohesive fabric. This is a misconception that I wish to dissolve if I am able. It is the perfect law which manifests freedom from conflict and the resulting decay. It is a perfect system yet never imposed.When one imagines a perfect system, it is common to notice the limit to its horizon. It is natural for finite beings to do so, but that is a rather incomplete analysis if we stop there. Take a circle for example, it is perfect by definition and yet limited by its circumference. What about squares and triangles etc.? Does the perfect circle leave them out of the picture? We often fail to realize that perfection can be added to without end, as long as the whole system remains in harmony. Imagine a geometric pattern with an endless variety of circles, as well as other shapes added, so long as they fit the overall theme or nature. That nature is inevitably illustrated by the law of non-contradiction. So perfection is essentially that law, and not only one expression of it.In a computer program, the information available as well as its function is limited only by time, space, and energy of the programmer, etc. As long as the end result is without error, the program will operate as designed. However, if an error does occur; if some component of the whole system misses its mark, then the system breaks down either slightly or completely and outside correction is required. In either dysfunction, the result is the same, as the perfect unity of the system is lost.Since every system in this universe is chained to the entropic reality of the second law of thermodynamics, my illustration is obviously just an analogy. A computer and its software are not absolute (ultimately perfect). My thesis is for illustrating the common practice of denying the possibility of a stable-entropic reality that founds our existence. The key to such a reality is a power that is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and altogether unfailing.Far from limiting humanity, the harmonious reality expressed in the Biblical Word of God and fulfilled by Jesus Christ opens the door to observe a truth at work that transcends runaway entropy, our finite universe, and unites all things into a divine order that has no limit.For simplicity, imagine again the geometric pattern that only gets richer and richer. The building of layers and dimension are as infinite conceptually as our conceptions of the infinite in any other area such as ”space’. As long as the components are doing what they were designed to do, there is no limit to the additions of any sort provided they are achieved in unity with the whole. This denotes proper placement and order of things, not the demise or limitation of them. Clearly, the richness of our universe from the sub-atomic to the galactic reflects the incalculable potential for order to be expressed to an extent that transcends simple mathematical equations.In such a system, time would evaporate as the process of decay may well not exist and the end would not threaten the individual parts. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that time would be transcended by eternity (a much different sort of measure). With proper (perfect) discipline, I see no reason to exclude any legitimate purpose or pleasure that exists in life within the parameters of such selflessness and commitment to order.In light of that, our only danger (as we presently witness) would be to assume control of the whole, of which we are only part. There is no need to desire such control other than to bring glory to an individual part that belongs to another, or the whole. In fact, the only ”real’ glory of any one dimension or part of a perfect system is in the fact that its proper place is realized and fulfilled. Then the part would actually be in concert with, and contributing to the divine wonder of the ever expanding horizons of being. Being perfect (real), it would not be possible for the part not to exist. Each part becomes essential and meaningful to the whole of existence. In Psalm 119; 96 king David delights in the boundless nature of the law of God and I believe we can understand the nature of the truth and its source that he is worshipping.God is whole and complete and wills us to live in His reality that we were designed for. We were designed for perfection. We set our bar far too low without Him. Without Him, we cannot conceive of what is ultimately His vision (we wouldn’t expect to). We are commanded to be perfect and He intends to make us whole again if we let Him (He will not give us less). Only He is capable of that. We are so far removed from this reality of His that we do not even desire to attain such an existence. He only asks that we believe in His perfection and turn (repent) from expecting less. We must accept His offer and choose it by humbling ourselves. Fortunately, He has the ability to give us the strength to endure the transition. One only need ask Him for it. We can trust that our faith is well placed, as nothing can replace or outdo perfection. It is simply more real than anything else.As a Christian, I believe based on empirical, rational, and personal experiential evidence, that we can see that reality even now ”as through a glass’ by way of a personal relationship with Christ. The truth reveals itself and it’s opposition, and sets us free from any deception. As finite natural creatures, we miss the mark, but God does not. We need not have faith in ourselves, when we can have faith in the perfect one. It is in the pre-natural or super-natural that the answers are found; the infinite nature of the God’s truth.His perfection is the reality we are so feeble to find on our own within our finite selves. What is reality? As G.K. Chesterton said, the only philosophy is the philosophy that is eternal (paraphrased). It is the absolute truth; the will of God. As Jesus said, ”my kingdom is not of this world’, but He did in fact create it. He is the uncaused I/you relationship who said, ”Let us create man in our image’. In Him, all things consist. We may very well discover, on the other side of this life that the invisible anti-matter theorized by so many physicists, is in fact the mighty hand of God. He spoke the universe into being, so that ”being’ would not be limited to Himself or His glory. God did not choose to stay ”in perfection’ as He always was in His triune nature, so being love, He chose to create ”infinite perfection’.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as an original thought?

sidelined writes:How can something that had no beginning be said to exist?

sidelined writes:If something has no beginning then this is equivalent to saying it never existed.

God did not have a beginning, therefore He does not need a cause.

The point is that you don't know god did not have a beginning, you merely assert it & attempt to use it as a premise in your argument. Evidentially vacuous premises ultimately lead to evidentially vacuous conclusions that can be discarded.

But you also apply a design inference to complex things & conclude they were designed. Applying this to god concludes he was designed by another bigger, better god, & so on. In other words using your own logic, the god you assert is everything, isn't.Either the design inference is valid, or it isn't. If you refuse to apply it to god then you are guilty of special pleading & hypocricy.

But to return to your topic title, asking such questions is meaningless until you first demonstrate at least one god exists.

No... it's not a premise, but a conclusion based upon careful examination of the evidence.

So who has the flawed premise?

Design applies only to 'physical things'.

God exists as a Spirit ultimately who caused the arrival of the physical dimension.

Striking isn't it? That the writers of the Bible could invent 'this God', in such a manner that even modern science thousands of years later would confirm

Reality is God.

Rob: mark24: Baseless assertion.

You have no evidence god exists at all, that's why religions are called faiths. But, knock yourself out & present some, I guarantee logical fallacies.

Whaaaaat? Science has not confirmed the existence of god!

nothing you have said has made any difference to the FACT that you do not know that god had a beginning, or not.

Actually, it is the definition of God. 1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality...

Let me guess... 'Emperical'?

You keep saying, 'Baseless assertion'!

what is the difference between a baseless assertion and one with a base?

Logic is our only tool Mark.

mark writes:Nothing you have said has made any difference to the FACT that you do not know that god had a beginning, or not.

Why must it have never existed? What if it always existed?

sidelined writes:That is the problem Phat. If something never began to exist {no beginning} then we can hardly turn around and say that it does have existence now can we?

Yes, that's right. Otherwise I have to accept all gods & goddesses regardles of whether they are mutually contradictory, or not.

pbee writes:We have evidence to support that the universe had a point of origin. Wouldn't that qualify as a beginning?