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Author
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Topic: Holistic Doctors, and medicine
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 50 of 304 (417343)
08-20-2007 11:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
08-20-2007 10:31 AM
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Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
Many chronic diseases have in fact been healed via alternative healthcare, wholistic diet regimes and exercise alone after the conventional MDs and drugs have failed. I doubt it. Link?
Diseases like cystic fibrosis, lupus, epilepsy, Huntington's, hemophelia, et al can all be helped to some degree by proper nutrition and wholistic healtcare, some to a significant degree. Link? I found no research to support this.
personal experience is not meaningless, unless you question my truthfulness. From a scientific standpoint, personal experience is meaningless. Anecdotal information is notoriously unreliable.
Your rant about Sinol is meaningless yada until you can show evidence that it is quakery. Well, I don't know about Quakers and Sinol, but I do know how to google. Sinol contains capsaicin. Google "capsaicin" and "headache" ...
It has been suggested that treatment of cluster headache (CH) patients with topical capsaicin may desensitize sensory neurons by depleting the nerve terminals of substance P. We attempted to determine whether capsaicin is effective in aborting CH attacks. Patients in acute cluster were randomized to receive either capsaicin or placebo in the ipsilateral nostril for 7 days. Patients recorded the severity of each headache for 15 days. Headaches on days 8-15 of the study were significantly less severe in the capsaicin group vs the placebo group. There was also a significant decrease in headache severity in the capsaicin group on days 8-15 compared to days 1-7, but not in the placebo group. Episodic CH patients appeared to benefit more than chronic CH patients. These results indicate that intranasal capsaicin may provide a new therapeutic option for the treatment of this disease. A double-blind placebo-controlled trial of intranasal capsaicin for cluster headache, Cephalalgia 13 (2), 114-116. According to wiki, cluster headaches are defined as:
Cluster headache sufferers typically experience very severe headaches of a piercing quality near one eye or temple that last for fifteen minutes to three hours with some lasting days. The headaches are typically unilateral and rarely change sides. Triggers for cluster headaches include:
Ingestion of alcohol is recognized as a common trigger of cluster headaches when a person is in cycle or susceptible. Exposure to hydrocarbons (petroleum solvents, perfume) is also recognized as a trigger for cluster headaches. Some patients have a decreased tolerance to heat, and becoming overheated may act as a trigger. Napping causes a headache for some sufferers. Treatments for cluster headaches include:
Some have reported partial relief from narcotic pain killers. Percocet has had widespread success amongst some cluster headache patients, especially males. Anecdotal evidence indicates that cluster headaches can be so excruciating that even morphine does little to ease the pain. However, some newer medications like fentanyl (and Percocet) have shown promise in early studies and use. Medications to treat cluster headaches are classified as either abortives or prophylactics. In addition, short-term transitional medications (such as steroids) may be used while prophylactic treatment is instituted and adjusted. With abortive treatments often only decreasing the duration of the headache and preventing it from reaching its peak rather than eliminating it entirely, preventive treatment is always indicated for cluster headaches, to be started at the first sign of a new cluster cycle. Sinusitis also produces headaches. There's no research on capsaicin and sinusitis. Sinus polyps, yes. Sinusitis, no.
Finally as to your rant on Sinol, nearly all products, health care practitioners and business concerns related to health are in it to make a profit and propagate the business. Nator's only point was that your wholesale dismissal of Big Pharma was short-sighted, to say the least. Sinol is Big Pharma.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2007 10:31 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 52 of 304 (417399)
08-20-2007 8:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
08-20-2007 8:25 PM
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Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
Bad news, buz. Bad news. First link. I can't seem to find links to any research that might support their claims. Is there a link I'm missing? I don't think there is, 'cause the vibe I'm gettin' is ...
IRC maintains a dedicated licensed and certified staff with full medical credentials. ... quack quack quack. Second link. You knew I wasn't gonna buy anecdotal "evidence". Why did you even bother posting this link? I don't care if you provide a link with thousands of testimonial letters.
Anecdotal "evidence" is meaningless.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2007 8:25 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2007 9:13 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 55 of 304 (417408)
08-20-2007 9:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
08-20-2007 9:13 PM
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Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
Too bad you don't require as much research evidence to justify conventional practitioner's Au contraire, dear buzzy. Au contraire! I research each and every medication I take or even think of taking.
side effects all the way from nausia (sic) to heart attacks to death, thousands of deaths occuring (sic) yearly from the death symptoms (sic) alone. And guess what? I'm not concerned about the side effects of the entire available pharmacopoeia. Just those I take. And guess what else? Big Pharma sucks. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna stick a needle in my tush and suck down tap water parading as a "homeopathic remedy". And guess what else? These "alternative" "medicines" of which you are so fond are not without side effects, up to and including death. And finally. I just e mailed Goldberg. We'll see if he replies.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2007 9:13 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2007 11:23 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 57 of 304 (417421)
08-20-2007 11:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
08-20-2007 11:23 PM
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Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
What are the side effects of the ones you take or have taken according to the warnings? None of your beeswax.
What percentage of patients do you think research each and every medication they take? Not my problem. Also not my problem? Folks who don't read the labels on household products and injure themselves as a result.
1. How many alternative clinics can you document who administer tap water via a needle? Perhaps I was unclear. Let me slow this down for you. Acupuncture uses needles. Homeopathic 'medicine" is tap water.
2. How many deaths have been confirmed to have been attributed to alternative practices and/or alternative suppliments such as herbs, vitamins, minerals, detoxification cleanses, fasting and wholesome diets, et al in the past year? 1. Kava Kava
More recently in Germany, liver damage has been reported from use of Kava Kava. As a result the Consumer Reports, May 2004 listed Kava Kava to liver damage and death. Kava has been used for some hundreds or thousands of years in the Hawaiian area and no similar results were reported in other countries. A second opinion can be found in Patrick Holford's 'Optimum Nutrition for the Mind', 2003: When taken in its original form, the root contains both kavalactones and gluthathione. When only the extract with pure kavalactones is used, the extract will will add to the burden of the enzyme liver detoxification system, especially when alcohol or prescription drugs are added. Herbalists only recommend using the root in its natural state.
2. Aristolochic acid
Aristolochi acid is known to cause cancer, kidney failure and death. It is banned in 10 countries according to Time, 'A to Z Health Guide', 2005.
3. Comfrey, Chaparral, Germander
These herbs have been used without problems for many years by herbalists but are now linked to irreversible liver damage.
4. Ephedra
Once again the original form of the herb as Desert tea in the States or Ma huang in China has been used for hundreds or thousands of years. Ephedra is now banned in the States because it has been linked to 155 deaths. Misuse of natural remedies does not help. For example, Digitalis an extract of the herb Foxglove is used in the treatment of heart disease but an overdose or misuse may also lead to death. The same can be said about coffee, sugar and a fast variety of natural remedies and food items. Page Removed I will do further research to track down statistics for this year, just in case 155 deaths isn't enough for you.
Good, but consider this: How do you research an entire wholistic regime which involves everything from minimal conventional methodology integration to diet, exercise, herbals, vitamins, sunlight, deep breathing, medical examinations, message, chiropractice, juicing, et al? I don't intend to investigate all the woo meisters. There are plenty of sites that do that for me. JREF - HomeHome Page | Quackwatch Just to name two. However, I would love to fisk Goldberg sideways. So rest assured, should he reply, I will research the bejeezus outta him. Just as Percy has done for http://www.dynamicgreens.com.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2007 11:23 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 84 of 304 (417510)
08-21-2007 12:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 61 by riVeRraT
08-21-2007 8:48 AM
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Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
Sounds like a cure for a chronic disease. It is one thing to produce results in vitro. It is quite another to produce results in vivo. If it were true that in vitro = in vivo, cancer would be cured (because many things have "worked" on cancer in vitro). Now. On to homeopathy.
Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed. A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth. Home Page | Quackwatch Allow me to summarize: Homeopathic "medicines" are tap water.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 08-21-2007 8:48 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 85 of 304 (417511)
08-21-2007 1:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by nator
08-21-2007 11:02 AM
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Re: Herbs, Medicine, or Natural
rat said:
This whole holistic thing relies on you believing it will work, before you even get treatment. I just got off the phone with my holistic doctor, and that was her exact words. Well. At least she was honest.
Real drugs have an effect on the body regardless of if the person believes that they will work or not. Good point! (pause) But, you know, the more I think about it ... maybe if I believe, REALLY BELIEVE, then that cyanide I just swallowed won't hurt me!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by nator, posted 08-21-2007 11:02 AM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 08-21-2007 1:45 PM | | molbiogirl has not replied | | | Message 91 by Taz, posted 08-21-2007 9:02 PM | | molbiogirl has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 92 of 304 (417562)
08-21-2007 9:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 90 by Taz
08-21-2007 9:00 PM
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Re: Wholistic The Only Safe And Effective Way
Well, Taz, I skimmed pubmed just now and found research on food allergies (peanuts, etc.) and the short answer is yes. Folks can inherit allergies.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Taz, posted 08-21-2007 9:00 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 104 of 304 (417671)
08-23-2007 7:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by anastasia
08-23-2007 5:12 PM
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Homeopathy
I at one point dabbled in homeopathy, but never as a remedy, only a prevention. Homeopathy is bunk. As I pointed out upthread, homeopathic "medicines" are tap water. The typical dilution is 30X. That means one part "medicine" to 100 to the power of 30 parts water. A real world analogy: A drop in a fishtank? Nope. Too concentrated. A drop in an Olympic swimming pool? Nope. Too concentrated. A drop in Lake Michigan? Nope. Too concentrated. A drop in the Atlantic Ocean? Nope. Too concentrated. A drop in a pool of water the size of our solar system? Yep! Practitioners claim that the water retains the "memory" of the "medicine". Horse apples! If that were true, that very same water would have much stronger memories of feces and urine. Mmmmmmmmm! (Credit where credit is due: Dr. Richard Dawkins used this analogy in The Enemies of Reason.)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 5:12 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Re: Homeopathy
Sorry, I meant to say naturopathy, primarily herbals. Naturopathy, sometimes referred to as "natural medicine," is a largely pseudoscientific approach said to "assist nature" [1], "support the body's own innate capacity to achieve optimal health" [2], and "facilitate the body's inherent healing mechanisms." [3] Naturopaths assert that diseases are the body's effort to purify itself, and that cures result from increasing the patient's "vital force." They claim to stimulate the body's natural healing processes by ridding it of waste products and "toxins." At first glance, this approach may appear sensible. However, a close look will show that naturopathy's philosophy is simplistic and that its practices are riddled with quackery. Naturopaths offer treatment at their offices and at spas where patients may reside for several weeks. Their offerings include fasting, "natural food" diets, vitamins, herbs, tissue minerals, homeopathic remedies, cell salts, manipulation, massage, exercise, colonic enemas, acupuncture, Chinese medicine, natural childbirth, minor surgery, and applications of water, heat, cold, air, sunlight, and electricity. Radiation may be used for diagnosis, but not for treatment. Many of these methods are said to "detoxify" the body. http://quackwatch.org/...Topics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html
More misinformation about the safety and efficacy of herbs is reaching the public currently than at any previous time, including the turn-of-the-century heyday of patent medicines ... Practically all writing (about herbs) recommend large numbers of herbs for treatment based on hearsay, folklore, and tradition. The only criterion that seems to be avoided in these publications is scientific evidence ... Even deadly poisonous herbs are sometimes touted as remedies, based on some outdated report or a misunderstanding of the facts. Particularly insidious is the myth that there is something almost magical about herbal drugs that prevents them, in their natural state, from harming people. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/herbs.html And, as I pointed out upthread, herbal "remedies" are not only ineffective, they can, and do, cause serious injury and death.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 7:54 PM | | anastasia has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 11:36 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 115 of 304 (417744)
08-23-2007 11:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 113 by Buzsaw
08-23-2007 11:20 PM
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Re: Gum Health
I know there's critics out there badmouthing Dr. Lorrain Day's approach ... Just a snippet from this woomeister's site:
AIDS is, indeed, curable ... She also claims ...
[1] Her videotapes state that standard cancer treatment has never cured anyone and that nobody should undergo chemotherapy and radiation for any cancer [2]. She claims that (a) all cancers are essentially the same; (b) the basic cause is weakness of the immune system; and (c) her diet-centered program cures people by strengthening their immune system [2]. She states that, "All diseases are caused by a combination of three factors: malnutrition, dehydration, and stress." [3] She tells people that, "Drugs never cure disease; they only change the form and location of the disease." [4] She claims that "sugar is as addictive as cocaine" and paralyzes the immune system for four hours" after eating it [4]. She claims that "osteoporosis is not caused by lack of calcium" and that "the more milk you drink, the more osteoporotic you become." [4] She spouts long lists of health problems that she claims are caused by commonly used foods and drugs [4]. She also advises against vaccination [5] and the use of standard treatment for Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder [6]. She speaks eloquently and from the heart, but her tapes contain hundreds of factual errors and far-fetched claims. In my opinion, her advice is untrustworthy and is particularly dangerous to people with cancer. http://www.quackwatch.org/...ryRelatedTopics/Cancer/day.html This woman is infamous. She's also a conspiracy theorist extraordinaire.
Day's 10-tape audio series, "Conquering Confusion about your medical treatment," illustrates the expansive nature of her thinking. Throughout these tapes, she describes a conspiracy for world domination”with roots going back over 200 years”whose elements include the AIDS virus (created to reduce world population from 6 billion to 500 million); fluoridation; vaccination; pornography; gun control; food irradiation; chemotherapy; radiation treatments; bank centralization; junk food; the medical profession; television programming; computer games (used to program children); subliminal television messages; rock music (a basic "beat" was created to make young people "susceptible to drugs and sex"); the CIA; government-controlled food-management organizations; "the Illuminati" (who began working toward a new world order in 1776); the Rockefeller Foundation, the American Cancer Society; laser and DVD technology; television boxes (that can be used to spy on people) the Communist Manifesto (promoted by the U.S. Government); the news media (behind every story there is a plan controlled from a central source); rewriting of school textbooks; cover-up of the real killers of President John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Princess Diana, and Martin Luther King; "diabolic plans for your health care"; melting of the polar ice cap; and plans by National Aeronautic and Space Agency (NASA) to use rocket power to relocate the Earth further way from the Sun. To guard against these many alleged dangers, she advises everyone to stop watching commercial television (because after only a few minutes, watchers lose the ability to think rationally and resist the "lies" that permeate our society). She also states that cancer patients cannot get well if they work or watch television and that getting medical care and taking medication are a betrayal of God. http://www.quackwatch.org/...ryRelatedTopics/Cancer/day.html
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by Buzsaw, posted 08-23-2007 11:20 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 119 of 304 (417783)
08-24-2007 3:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 114 by anastasia
08-23-2007 11:36 PM
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Re: Homeopathy
I don't really get your point in pasting all this stuff. Combating pseudoscience is important.
... achieving optimal health via tried and true methods. I don't know what you mean by "tried and true". Could you elaborate? You seem like a responsible health care consumer ...
You say consult a nutritionist, but then you say I got a bad nutritionist. Doctor recommends them, how does one tell a good one from a bad one? ... so I'm surprised that you didn't immediately google "bleeding gums" and walk into your appointment with the MD/ND armed with a bunch of questions. I am also surprised you didn't research the MD/ND before your appointment(s). There are any number of sites that provide board certification, education and training, disciplinary actions, even "criminal convictions, exclusions from federal and state health-care programs, civil judgments (other than malpractice actions) related to health care, and other adjudicated actions or decisions" ( Naturopathy: A Critical Analysis | Quackwatch).
Just as it took time for those practices to be put in place, it will take time for the same practices to be put in place for the alternative medicines. It is extraordinarily unlikely that "those practices" (rigorous academic institutions, peer-review, etc.) will be put in place for naturopathy for the simple reason that naturopathy will not stand up under scientific scrutiny. After all, naturopathy asserts:
Naturopathy asserts that a "vital curative force" (which naturopaths confuse with what the Hippocratics called vis medicatrix naturae) flows through vaguely conceptualized channels akin to the "meridians" of TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine). Impedance, or "unbalancing" the flow of this force, can cause disease. Naturopathy: A Critical Analysis | Quackwatch In other words, naturopathy is based on gobbledygook. "Alternative" medicine is a misnomer. If "alternative" medicine is tested under controlled scientific circumstances it will cease to be "alternative" and will simply become medicine. So "alternative" medicine either hasn't been tested or it has failed its tests. For the most part, naturopathy employs "an array of scientifically implausible nostrums and gadgets" ( http://www.naturowatch.net) ...
The list includes: "natural" herbs and nutritional supplements, biofeedback, relaxation techniques, acupuncture, cupping, and moxibustion (also borrowed from TCM) [3], massage, enemas ("high colonics"), water baths ("hydrotherapy"), heat treatments, aromatherapy, fasting ("cleansing"), hypnosis, reflexology, joint manipulation (e.g., "Rolfing"), "realignment" of the cranial bones, bioenegetics, breathwork, magnetic healing, homeopathic potions, therapeutic touch, faith healing, copper bracelets for arthritis, and various Ayurvedic and Native-American healing practices. Naturopathy, to its credit, emphasizes "the benefits of a healthy lifestyle, the value of prevention, and the desirability of using the least intrusive intervention that will do the job" (Ibid.); however, they foster scientific illiteracy (of the worst sort!).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 11:36 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Re: Homeopathy
Ah yes. My mistake. I think this ...
Sorry, I meant to say naturopathy, primarily herbals. ... may have led me astray. Could you elaborate on "tried and true"?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by anastasia, posted 08-24-2007 3:32 PM | | anastasia has not replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 123 of 304 (417815)
08-24-2007 7:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 122 by Buzsaw
08-24-2007 6:59 PM
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DEATH
btw, buz. Glad to see you checking in. You have yet to respond to Message 57 or Message 104. What say you?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2007 6:59 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 124 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2007 8:31 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 125 of 304 (417832)
08-24-2007 8:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 124 by Buzsaw
08-24-2007 8:31 PM
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Re: DEATH
As you wish. 57:
2. How many deaths have been confirmed to have been attributed to alternative practices and/or alternative suppliments (sic) such as herbs, vitamins, minerals, detoxification cleanses, fasting and wholesome diets, et al in the past year? Zero? One? Three or four? How many, madear? Oh. My darling. 155 so far. Need I say more? 104: Oh lordy. Where is my mind? I meant 115. After all. You seem to find Dr. Lorraine Day worthy of mention. Do you think NASA is going to relocate the Earth? Or perhaps you subscribe to her "more conventional" beliefs ... say, for example, that "getting medical care and taking medication are a betrayal of God"? ABE: Speaking of 115. I finally managed to track down this Deborah Ray character. I'll have you know that I had to listen to 3 hours of this woman's prattle before I could find something to research. Apparently, Ms. Ray is quite impressed with the work of Dr. Ellen Langer, a psychologist at Harvard University. Ms. Ray summarized Dr. Langer's research by saying (quote) "That the women in the group, who were told that their work was good exercise and that they met the guidelines for healthy active lifestyle, lost weight, saw their blood pressure drop, saw their body fat drop, they reduced their body mass index, and the other group saw absolutely no changes. So, the conclusion, thinking you got a workout made your body healthier when nothing in your lifestyle changed." (unquote) ( http://www.healthradio.net/...ives/20070204/0204_debray1.mp3) The implication being, of course, mind over body. Now. Since Dr. Langer hasn't published this "evidence", I must rely on Ms. Ray's description of the "study". 84 women were included in the "study". 84. Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be inferred from a "study" whose sample size is 84! And then, to make matters worse, this Deborah Ray starts in on "neurotransmitters" and arterial plaque and back pain. In under 30 seconds. So there you have it. According to Ms. Ray, an unpublished "study" of 84 women means the "mind" has absolute control over the body. Your BP, your BMI, your neurotransmitters, your plaque, your pain. Whatever. Ms. Ray doesn't seem to think it's necessary to provide any proof of what she's saying ... which is why I was forced to listen to 3 hours of this crap to find something to research! I'm still workin' on trackin' down ole Dr. O'Hhira. I can only find commercial sites hawking his "evolutionary leap in probiotic science". As far as I can tell, there is no research by "this renowned microbiologist from Japan ... (who was) also named "Best Scientist of the Year". ( http://www.naturodoc.com/library/detox/probiotics.htm) Remarkable. Renowned microbiologist. Best scientist. Yet no publications! Perhaps you would be kind enough, dear buz, to provide a link where I might peruse Dr. O'Hhira's voluminous research. Edited by molbiogirl, : research
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2007 8:31 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 127 by nator, posted 08-24-2007 11:08 PM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: 06-06-2007
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Message 128 of 304 (417866)
08-24-2007 11:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by nator
08-24-2007 11:08 PM
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Re: well...
nator writes: Emily Rosa, the little girl who tested the nurses who claimed to be able to feel people's "energy" (they were Theraputic Touch" practitioners) without touching them tested only 12 subjects ... As much as I admire Emily ...
"It's poor in terms of design and methodology," she said. She said the designer of the study -- Emily -- should not have been the one to conduct it, and the 21 subjects were too few and unrepresentative. Error
nator writes: ... and her JAMA paper caused quite the stir. And after having read the article, it looks like it was a jumping off point for a literature review by Dr. Barrett more than it was a "study". From Emily's JAMA article:
These methods have enabled us to identify and obtain 853 reports (or abstracts), of which 609 deal specifically with TT, 224 mention it incidentally, and 20 discuss TT predecessors. Ninety-seven other cited items were either nonpublished or were published in obscure media we could not locate. Of the 74 quantitative studies, 23 were clearly unsupportive. Eight reported no statistically significant results,16, 58, 98-103 3 admitted to having inadequate samples,22, 56, 104 2 were inconclusive,11, 105 and 6 had negative findings.106-111 Four attempted independent replications but failed to support the original findings.112-115 To our knowledge, no attempt to conduct experiments to reconcile any of these unsupportive findings has been reported.
JAMA link Now. It's been a couple of years since I dragged my sorry ass thru statistics. And I have only this Ray character's word to go on (Dr. Langer, 84 women, in Boston ... that's it for identifying characteristics). However. I still maintain one would be hard pressed to consider 84 subjects an adequate sample and the findings statistically significant. Edited by molbiogirl, : poor wording
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by nator, posted 08-24-2007 11:08 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by nator, posted 08-25-2007 7:44 AM | | molbiogirl has replied |
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