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Author Topic:   God caused or uncaused?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 136 of 297 (417706)
08-23-2007 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
08-23-2007 10:44 AM


Re: Yet more misrepresentation.
jar:
I'm not sure where you get your information, likely from Biblical Creationist sites
Richard Lewontin fully supports the TOE and you can find one of his responses to the many attempts by the Biblical Christians to misrepresent his position
I know that he does jar... and that is why it is so effective for those able to comprehend logic. At least he is honest.
We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
(Richard Lewontin "Billions and Billions of Demons")
jar:
The topic is "God caused or uncaused?"
Evolution is totally irrelevant to that question.
Why don't you just let the subject develop? I will get to how this relates to reality being caused or uncaused soon enough... You're going to love it...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 08-23-2007 10:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 08-23-2007 9:49 PM Rob has replied
 Message 139 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 9:53 PM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 297 (417711)
08-23-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Rob
08-23-2007 9:35 PM


And still more misrepresentation.
Don't you ever get tired of misrepresentation and slight of hand games?
You likely got that from AIG or one of the other nonsense Biblical Creationism sites and it is just another example of taking things out of context, of trying to misdirect attention while the Biblical Christian palms the pea.
Here is a link that includes the quote in context.
So far all you have presented has been smoke and mirrors, misrepresentation, slight of hand and other con man tactics.
Why don't you just let the subject develop? I will get to how this relates to reality being caused or uncaused soon enough... You're going to love it...
Well it is irrelevant whether reality is caused or uncaused because reality is not the topic. In case you missed it, the topic happens to be "God caused or uncaused?" and Evolution is totally unrelated to that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 9:35 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 9:56 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 138 of 297 (417712)
08-23-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Omnivorous
08-23-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Omnivorous:
How about the inheritance of characteristics?
Or the occurrence of mutations?
Adaptation to a dying environment and ecosystem? That proves devolution, not evolution.
How do you explain the DNA they must have to do these things in the first place?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 9:34 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 9:55 PM Rob has replied
 Message 142 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:02 PM Rob has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 139 of 297 (417714)
08-23-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Rob
08-23-2007 9:35 PM


Re: Yet more misrepresentation.
Folks who have valid points to make don't change the subject.
Don't Gish Gallop off into the sunset.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 9:35 PM Rob has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 140 of 297 (417715)
08-23-2007 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Rob
08-23-2007 9:50 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Ducking and weaving, again: the inheritance of characteristics, mutations, and natural selection are evolutionary facts.
You asked for some. You got some.
Admit they are facts, and then we can discuss another subject.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 9:50 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 10:05 PM Omnivorous has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 141 of 297 (417716)
08-23-2007 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
08-23-2007 9:49 PM


Re: And still more misrepresentation.
jar:
Don't you ever get tired of misrepresentation and slight of hand games?
Logical fallacy: Complex question.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 08-23-2007 9:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 08-23-2007 10:12 PM Rob has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 142 of 297 (417718)
08-23-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Rob
08-23-2007 9:50 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Rob writes:
Adaptation to a dying environment and ecosystem? That proves devolution, not evolution.
Devolution? No such critter. Organisms adapt to a changed environment.
Nonetheless, while you're at it, could you list some devolutionary facts?

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 9:50 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 10:06 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 145 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 10:09 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 143 of 297 (417719)
08-23-2007 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Omnivorous
08-23-2007 9:55 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Admit they are facts, and then we can discuss another subject.
I didn't deny that they are facts. They are the evidence that is actually a result of good empericism.
They are the evidence that we all interpret. They show change in species. Natural selection is a reality. I already know that.
But is it devolution or evolution?
Good science shows... that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is also a fact. And one of the most basic in all science. There is a need for a cell to convert raw energy into usable biological energy and that creates an insurmountable obstacle. We must assume the existence of the very systems of energy translation, as a means of constructing the system. The second law is an obstacle that runs counter to evolutionary theory entirely, but is matched by the creator solution at the philosophical level.
The universe was created whole and good, and is now in the process of entropy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 9:55 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:10 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 144 of 297 (417720)
08-23-2007 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Omnivorous
08-23-2007 10:02 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
omnivorous:
Nonetheless, while you're at it, could you list some devolutionary facts?
Entropy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:02 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 145 of 297 (417721)
08-23-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Omnivorous
08-23-2007 10:02 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
omnivorous:
Devolution? No such critter. Organisms adapt to a changed environment.
Fallen. Fallen are we creatures I'm afraid.
The moon is lodsing it's orbit. The sun is burning out. ect...
It is a consistent pattern throughout nature Except! when it comes to evolutinary theory.
TOE has some huge coherence isssues with basic physical law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:02 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 146 of 297 (417722)
08-23-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Rob
08-23-2007 10:05 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Rob writes:
Good science shows... that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is also a fact. And one of the most basic in all science. There is a need for a cell to convert raw energy into usable biological energy and that creates an insurmountable obstacle. We must assume the existence of the very systems of energy translation, as a means of constructing the system. The second law is an obstacle that runs counter to evolutionary theory entirely, but is matched by the creator solution at the philosophical level.
The universe was created whole and good, and is now in the process of entropy.
That's really tired. I see that you do not understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The universe is just chock full of local areas of both increasing entropy and decreasing entropy.
Further, you again assume that evolution requires a progression to greater organization/complexity. That is not so: evolution merely describes the process by which generations of organisms over time adapt to a changing environment.
More complex is not better; simpler is not bad.
To live and reproduce is good.
Questions?
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 10:05 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 10:13 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 150 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 10:15 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 156 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 11:26 AM Omnivorous has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 147 of 297 (417723)
08-23-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Omnivorous
08-23-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Omnivorous:
Abe: Oh, and fewer faster rabbits get caught.
Why are you calling them rabbits? Aren't they a new species?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 9:34 PM Omnivorous has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 148 of 297 (417724)
08-23-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Rob
08-23-2007 9:56 PM


Re: And still more misrepresentation.
It might have been a complex question were it not for the preceding messages where it was demonstrated exactly where and how you were misrepresenting and playing slight of hand games.
The problem is that instead of addressing the topic, your own topic, you dance around presenting irrelevant nonsense and unimportant fantasy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Rob, posted 08-23-2007 9:56 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 149 of 297 (417725)
08-23-2007 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Omnivorous
08-23-2007 10:10 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Omnivorous:
Further, you again assume that evolution requires a progression to greater organization/complexity. That is not so: evolution merely describes the process by which generations of organisms over time adapt to a changing environment.
Thank you. A dying environment where the complex and simple alike lived together as a whole and complete family.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:10 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:17 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 150 of 297 (417726)
08-23-2007 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Omnivorous
08-23-2007 10:10 PM


Re: Chain of reasoning
Omnivorous:
That's really tired. I see that you do not understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Oh but I do Omnivorous... Thermodynamic Arguments for Creation
Near the end, is the information on raw energy and snowflakes etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:10 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Omnivorous, posted 08-23-2007 10:21 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 153 by Shtop, posted 08-23-2007 10:25 PM Rob has not replied

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