Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   God caused or uncaused?
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 196 of 297 (418046)
08-26-2007 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
08-14-2007 1:38 PM


Re: Alright let's look at this...
If you're going to put options on the table, get them out there.
Rob: Assuming the existence of God for a moment, what are our options on this issue?
1. God is uncaused
2. God is caused.
3. Both of the above.
4. Neither of the above.
5. You can't know.
(Keeping in mind that the initial assumption is exactly that.)

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 1:38 PM Rob has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 197 of 297 (418047)
08-26-2007 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rob
08-13-2007 10:10 AM


Re: Why we keep coming back to this question.
Rob:
C.S. Lewis gave a simmilar illustration to yours, but not about time but God himself. He said that if our life is a line on a sheet, then God would be the whole page. But even then he cautiously reminds us that it is only meant to help, it cannot capture the infinite nature of God. God is not a page, He is a book. And even then we're dealing with only one chapter of His reality that relates to this particular part of the story as he relates to us. In the end, there is no end.
In the end, there is no book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rob, posted 08-13-2007 10:10 AM Rob has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 198 of 297 (418050)
08-26-2007 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Rob
08-15-2007 1:14 PM


Re: Alright let's look at this...
Rob:
there is ultimately nothing emperical about 'empericism' other than it's correct inference to logic (ie. philosophical coherence).
Two goofs.
1. Reliance on quantifiable sensory data is also an identifying feature of empiricism.
2. Logical coherence is mathematical, not "philosophical," in nature.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 1:14 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:04 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 199 of 297 (418060)
08-26-2007 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Rob
08-25-2007 8:05 PM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob,
Logic wasn't created by God. Logic is God. Reality (God) is logical.
You have no evidence of this, you just assert it.
I have a friend. His name is reality. He loves His son. The son's name is logic. and logic never lies
And like I've said before, logic does lie, logically valid arguments can be wrong, & invalid ones right, so not even another baseless assertion, an assertion contradicted by evidence.
I never said logic was made. I am saying that it is uncaused (ie. not made).
I'm saying logic was made, & with as much veracity as you, ie. none, this is why what YOU say isn't evidence. Like you said, "could have" doesn't cut it.
Is this it, no evidence of god whatsoever, just vacuous assertions?
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 8:05 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:13 AM mark24 has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 200 of 297 (418072)
08-26-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Archer Opteryx
08-26-2007 3:05 AM


Re: Alright let's look at this...
Archer:
Two goofs.
1. Reliance on quantifiable sensory data is also an identifying feature of empiricism.
2. Logical coherence is mathematical, not "philosophical," in nature.
mark and I already went round and round with this.
Quantifiable? ie. mathematical?
Well of course... one cannot rely on his senses to tell him his senses are valid. It must be tested by good reasoning (ie. mathematical / logical thinking).
What is philosophy?
It is applied logic. applied logic | Fallacies, Varieties, & Facts | Britannica
So, good philosophy is simply mathematical observation and testing of an idea.
All of the above is dependent on the validity of the law of non-contradiction (ie. logic).
Call it math, call it philosophy, call it sensory. The point is we are all seeking logical (philosophical) coherence between the physical world, our experiences of it, and logic.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2007 3:05 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:19 AM Rob has replied
 Message 259 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2007 12:07 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 201 of 297 (418073)
08-26-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by mark24
08-26-2007 4:43 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24:
And like I've said before, logic does lie, logically valid arguments can be wrong, & invalid ones right, so not even another baseless assertion, an assertion contradicted by evidence.
Who said a lie is logical? It is only internally coherent. You and I have already agreed that we must have internal and external coherence. It is a complete picture that is ultimately and totally logical.
Why do we even have to rehash this?
mark24:
I'm saying logic was made, & with as much veracity as you, ie. none, this is why what YOU say isn't evidence. Like you said, "could have" doesn't cut it.
Here is the question... and it is my response to jar as well:
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 4:43 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 10:28 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 202 of 297 (418074)
08-26-2007 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by jar
08-25-2007 10:25 PM


Re: Request denied.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 08-25-2007 10:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 10:37 AM Rob has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 203 of 297 (418075)
08-26-2007 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:04 AM


Rob writes:
The point is we are all seeking logical (philosophical) coherence between the physical world, our experiences of it, and logic.
But the topic is God, not the physical world.
It doesn't matter how coherent your philosophy is with your physical observations. There are no physical observations of God, so your ideas of God can only cohere with themselves.
The part of your philosophy that concerns God can have no coherence with your physical observations.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:04 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:25 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 204 of 297 (418076)
08-26-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by ringo
08-26-2007 10:19 AM


Ringo:
But the topic is God, not the physical world.
The physical world is logical. It is governed by elegant mathematical laws. They have been tested.
So our only salvation is logic. It is the only light we have with wich to understand anything. It is our primary reasoning process.
Do we have faith that it is valid or not?
Where do we place our faith?
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord who is a man of His Word (logos ie. logic).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:33 AM Rob has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 205 of 297 (418077)
08-26-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Rob
08-25-2007 8:05 PM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob
You're missing the point mark... Logic wasn't created by God. Logic is God. Reality (God) is logical.
Is there a logical reason why God exists?

"The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss."
Thomas Carlyle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 8:05 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:30 AM sidelined has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 206 of 297 (418078)
08-26-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob,
Who said a lie is logical?
Not me, I said logic can lie, in contradiction to you saying it couldn't.
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?
Not necessarily.
My great-grandmother lived until she was 93, she smoked cigarettes like a trooper all her life. She lived well beyond the average life expectancy. Smoking is therefore good for you. There you have & internal & external test cohere, it is valid logic, & it is also wrong. Your point?
Back on topic, my point is that you have nothing that meets the standard of "matching the external test". This is called evidence, please provide some.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:13 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:34 AM mark24 has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 207 of 297 (418079)
08-26-2007 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by sidelined
08-26-2007 10:28 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
sidelined
Is there a logical reason why God exists?
There must be, but since logic is infinite, we cannot have absolute comprehensive understanding of Him. So we either choose to trust Him, or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:28 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 10:35 AM Rob has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 208 of 297 (418081)
08-26-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Rob
08-26-2007 10:25 AM


Rob writes:
So our only salvation is logic. It is the only light we have with wich to understand anything. It is our primary reasoning process.
Do we have faith that it is valid or not?
"Faith in logic" be damned.
You still can't use logic to connect what is observable with what is unobservable. There is no possibility of coherence there.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:25 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 10:35 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 209 of 297 (418082)
08-26-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by mark24
08-26-2007 10:28 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24:
My great-grandmother lived until she was 93, she smoked cigarettes like a trooper all her life. She lived well beyond the average life expectancy. Smoking is therefore good for you. There you have & internal & external test cohere, it is valid logic, & it is also wrong. Your point?
That doesn't tell you how long she would have lived without smoking...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 10:28 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 10:51 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 210 of 297 (418083)
08-26-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by ringo
08-26-2007 10:33 AM


Ringo:
You still can't use logic to connect what is observable with what is unobservable. There is no possibility of coherence there.
I'm talking about logic itself Ringo...
Can you not see HIm?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 10:41 AM Rob has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024