Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   God caused or uncaused?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 234 of 297 (418111)
08-26-2007 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by mark24
08-26-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Because you can never be 100% sure of anything
True... because we do not have all of the information.
So to what do we look for clues?
Logical consistency?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:24 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:35 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 236 of 297 (418114)
08-26-2007 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
08-26-2007 11:30 AM


Ringo:
No. The physical world would stay together just fine even if nobody had ever had a notion about it.
You deny the laws of physics even though they are proven?
You don't believe in gravity?
Is gravity physical, or does it only affect the physical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:30 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Taz, posted 08-26-2007 11:39 AM Rob has replied
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:44 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 238 of 297 (418117)
08-26-2007 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
08-26-2007 11:30 AM


Ringo:
No it isn't. Logic is worthless without the physical observations for it to work on. It's nothing but a tool.
Exactly (no slang there...)
So logic is proven to exist, because of the physical world. We can compare the two...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:30 AM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Taz, posted 08-26-2007 11:42 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 239 of 297 (418118)
08-26-2007 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by mark24
08-26-2007 11:35 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Very good mark. Thank you.
Now see: http://EvC Forum: God caused or uncaused? -->EvC Forum: God caused or uncaused?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:35 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:41 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 244 of 297 (418123)
08-26-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Taz
08-26-2007 11:39 AM


Taz:
The laws of physics are not proven. Believing or disbelieving in gravity doesn't affect the fact that it's there. Gravity is not physical in the sense that you are thinking. It's physical in the sense that it affects everything, including light.
Evidence for god please.
Reality is bound to affect everything. That's why god is called Reality as per Merriam-Websters.
Evidence for God?
"I Am the light f the world"
Your doing fine on your own...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Taz, posted 08-26-2007 11:39 AM Taz has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 247 of 297 (418126)
08-26-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
08-26-2007 11:41 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
Rob: So what is science testing for if not logical coherence?
jar: Actually, understandability as opposed to logic. It doesn't matter if the correct answer is illogical as long as it is actually correct.
Can things illogical be understood? Can something illogical be correct? Can jabberwocky make sense?
jar:
It is not logical that something can be both a wave and a particle, but somethings are.
Like God being both God (spirit) and man (flesh) and the light of the world (logic)?
Everything that we know is logical. We couldn't know it if it wasn't. Knowing depends upon it.
Just because we cannot comprehend how the wave particle duality is solved doesn't mean that it isn't logical.
I have faith that it is. 'God doesn't play dice'.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:57 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 248 of 297 (418127)
08-26-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Taz
08-26-2007 11:46 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
Taz:
I tend to see logic as a tool for us to be consistent with ourselves and not as a mean to define the physical world. To use logic to define the physical world is like trying to detect cancer with a speed radar gun.
I believe that you believe that...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Taz, posted 08-26-2007 11:46 AM Taz has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 249 of 297 (418128)
08-26-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by mark24
08-26-2007 11:41 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Logic ie. God ie. reality ie. exists!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:41 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:53 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 251 of 297 (418130)
08-26-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
08-26-2007 11:44 AM


Ringo:
No. Logic doesn't "exist". Like the physical "laws", it's just a mental construct
So our mental constructs do not exist as non-material entities thereby proving that the non-material dimension exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 12:07 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 254 of 297 (418133)
08-26-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by SurSteven
08-26-2007 11:56 AM


Keep thinking SurSteven, and watch out. Because the admins will get you for not responding with the proper etiquete.
Use the reply button in the lower right hand corner of each message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by SurSteven, posted 08-26-2007 11:56 AM SurSteven has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 255 of 297 (418134)
08-26-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
08-26-2007 11:57 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
You never answered the question jar. You're railroading the thread. using up the post count.
The only one palming the pea is jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 12:07 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 256 of 297 (418135)
08-26-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by mark24
08-26-2007 11:53 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24:
That logic = god is a baseless assertion. That god = reality is the same.
Let me ask you this...
Is reality logical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:53 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 12:14 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 262 of 297 (418141)
08-26-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by mark24
08-26-2007 12:14 PM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob: Is realty logical
Mark24: No, it just is. We construct logical frameworks within which we explore the world around us. There's nothing "logical" about gravity, it just is, we may make logical statements about gravity, however.
And the fact that we see logical relationships between gravity and the objects it governs, and the fact that they are indeed logically consistent with our constructs show that reality is indeed logical even before we supposed to understand it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 12:14 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2007 12:50 PM Rob has replied
 Message 267 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 1:00 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 263 of 297 (418142)
08-26-2007 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by sidelined
08-26-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
All I am saying is that A is A, and not -A.
God is logic. Therefore His logical reason for existing is found within Himself.
It's like me saying that the law of noncontradiction is valid. The only for syaing that is because it would be a contradiction to say otherwise.
This kind of reciprocity in reasoning is ultimately unavoidable. For example, suppose you want to defend the idea that the senses are basically reliable. It would be fallacious to argue, “I believe in the reliability of the senses because I believe in the reliability of the senses.” That is begging the question. Nevertheless, we should all realize that it is absolutely impossible to argue for the basic reliability of sense perception without relying at least implicitly on sense perception. How do we argue for the reliability of our senses? We accumulate examples of times when our senses gave us true knowledge of the world. This is a perfectly sound induction. But how did we know that our examples even took place? How did we know our senses gave us true knowledge at these times? The answer is obvious: through sense perception. In what other way could one possibly demonstrate the reliability of the senses, except by relying on the senses? This is the kind of circularity or spiraling that Van Til pointed out in all human reasoning. It has nothing to do with begging the question.
Consider the law of non-contradiction. How can it be logically justified? Of course, no one should say, “The law of non-contradiction is true because the law of non-contradiction is true.” That is begging the question. We may say that the law is self-evident, but that is an assertion, not an argument. Every linear argument we muster in support of the law of non-contradiction at least implicitly relies on the law. Sometimes, we argue for the law of non-contradiction by saying that its denial leads to absurdity. But to recognize absurdity we have implicitly to use the law of non-contradiction. At other times, we argue for the law by pointing out that every attempt to deny it requires the implicit use of the law. Once again, we rely implicitly on the principle to support the principle. Because the law of non-contradiction holds as a universal principle for all human reasoning, we can never reason properly without it, even as we defend its necessity. If it is indeed necessary for human thought, we then use it all the time, even when discussing the law itself. To acknowledge this is not to beg the question, it is merely to acknowledge the reality of how we come to know things.
(http://www.thirdmill.org/...html/th/TH.h.Pratt.VanTil.2.html)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 12:24 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2007 1:42 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 272 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 3:46 PM Rob has replied
 Message 273 by sidelined, posted 08-26-2007 4:09 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 265 of 297 (418144)
08-26-2007 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Archer Opteryx
08-26-2007 12:50 PM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Archer:
Reality is just real.
No disagreement there!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-26-2007 12:50 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024