Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8863 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-21-2018 2:54 AM
75 online now:
Heathen, PaulK (2 members, 73 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: rldawnca
Post Volume:
Total: 838,723 Year: 13,546/29,783 Month: 992/1,576 Week: 204/303 Day: 1/27 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1516171819
20
Author Topic:   God caused or uncaused?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 286 of 297 (418421)
08-28-2007 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by jar
08-28-2007 1:16 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
None of the things you quoted are contradictions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 1:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 1:24 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30842
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 287 of 297 (418422)
08-28-2007 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Rob
08-28-2007 1:18 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
As I pointed out in Message 285

In addition, the topic, in case you missed it, is "God caused or uncaused?" and I honestly thing that were those two issues taken as Axiomatic, and interesting discussion might develop from the consequences of each position. However it would be important to remember that the initial premise is only Axiomatic, taken as true for the sake of the argument and unrelated to whether either position is in fact true.

So the whole strawman of the alleged Law of Non Contradiction is irrelevant to the thread.

You also ignore the rest of the points raised in Message 272 and seem to hope that by raising the strawman of Law of Non Contradiction no one will notice you palmed the pea.

A good example is your ignoring the rebuttal to your assertion that "Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused" where I pointed out to you that Loki is often illogical yet is God and therefore God does not equate to either reality or logic.

You still avoid discussing the topic and bring up irrelevancies.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 1:18 AM Rob has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 288 of 297 (418423)
08-28-2007 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Rob
08-28-2007 1:03 AM


Rob writes:

If our mental constructs are not valid, then your own disagreement with me is not valid.

I haven't said anything about our mental constructs being valid or invalid. I've said that our brains are physical objects with physical processes. The mental constructs that they produce are not evidence of a non-physical realm.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 1:03 AM Rob has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30842
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 289 of 297 (418424)
08-28-2007 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Rob
08-28-2007 1:16 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob writes:

You sound like a broken record jar...

However you never bothered to support that position...However you never bothered to support that position...However you never bothered to support that position...However you never bothered to support that position...However you never bothered to support that
position...However you never bothered to...However you never bothered to support that position... support that position...However you never bothered to support that position...

Misrepresenting...
Misrepresenting...Misrepresenting...Misrepresenting...Misrepresenting...Misrepresenting...
Misrepresenting...Misrepresenting...Misrepresenting...Misrepresenting...

I have never yet met a man who is so obsessed with the sin of others and accusing them day and night.

Demonizing and condemning them...

Until Ad Populum is the rule of the game and everyone is repeating after jar...

Joseph Goebles would be proud...

I have tried very hard to actually document any such instances, and to restrict myself to addressing the content of the messages you post and to address the actual topic of the thread. I also try very hard to provide links to earlier messages so that the audience can easily follow the sub-threads as they develop. If I am in error, then it should be a simple matter of you providing links to where the issue is raised and later resolved.

In particular I would appreciate links to messages where I "Demonizing and condemning them..." I have made every effort to address the message and not the person.

AbE:

I don't believe I was the person who said "Personally, I don't think you have the mental capacity to comprehend the issues being discussed here." as can be found in Message 191 or "It's just beyond you jar. it's no big deal... we all have our limitations." as found in Message 193.

END AbE:

I hope that helps.

Edited by jar, : add edit


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 1:16 AM Rob has not yet responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3089 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 290 of 297 (418436)
08-28-2007 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Rob
08-28-2007 1:06 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob,

So now mathematical relationships are not logical either?

No, they are not syllogisms, which is the context of logic in which we are talking.

Which is a more or less valid logical syllogism, the inverse square law or the inverse cubed law? It's a meaningless statement. Like which is more wet, a square or a circle.

Reality isn't logical, it just is, applying the word "logic" to reality is inappropriate.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 1:06 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 10:14 AM mark24 has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 297 (418444)
08-28-2007 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Rob
08-28-2007 12:53 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob
sidelined writes:

This is known as a circular argument and is not logical.

Rob writes:

So is your statement.

All logic is circular, A=A and not -A.

Sorry Rob, my statement refers to the specific{this} not general{all}. I mentioned only your particular argument and did not say that all
logic is circular.

Rob writes:

The law of non-contradiction is valid because it doesn't contradict itself.

It wold not matter if that was the case Rob since it does not apply. Your statement

Rob writes:

God is logic. Therefore His logical reason for existing is found within Himself.

is against the Law of Non-contradiction and that is the point I was making.

Maybe we have to say that God is infinitely regressive within Himself. Since He is logic, then He is the reason for His own existence.

You are desperate yet again Rob and have merely repackaged the same problem thinking that would change the rules of the same logical principle{ Law of Non-contradiction} you seek refuge behind.

It really boils down to this... do you trust your eyes, or the mind that interprets what they see?

You test them against the phenomena to see what actually occurs. Like the illusion offered at this website http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/sze_sineIllusion/index.html
it is not possible to tell until you make the measurement to determine whether the lines are the same or not.

The measurement is the thing and it is the insights offered by measurement that we use to determine whether our eyes or our interpretations are valid.

Like I said philosophers assume scientists test.


"The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss."

Thomas Carlyle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 12:53 AM Rob has not yet responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 292 of 297 (418465)
08-28-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by mark24
08-28-2007 4:42 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
mark24:
No, they are not syllogisms, which is the context of logic in which we are talking.

Mathematical relationships obey the law of non contradiction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by mark24, posted 08-28-2007 4:42 AM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Fosdick, posted 08-28-2007 10:53 AM Rob has not yet responded
 Message 294 by mark24, posted 08-28-2007 11:00 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3394 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 293 of 297 (418467)
08-28-2007 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Rob
08-28-2007 10:14 AM


The Law of Non Contradiction
Rob wrote:

Mathematical relationships obey the law of non contradiction.

I thought the "law of non contradiction" was a test for "absolute truth." And, so far as mathematics goes, Gödel pretty well shot that one down.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 10:14 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3089 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 294 of 297 (418468)
08-28-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Rob
08-28-2007 10:14 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob,

Mathematical relationships obey the law of non contradiction.

So what? What you are getting at is that physical laws are ordered & predictable, whether they can be described logically or not is a red herring. You can describe chaos theory logically & that has no order or predictability.

What is more logical, the inverse square law or the inverse cube? How do you know that god got it right using one & not the other? How do you know what a naturally occurring relationship looks like compared to a designed one? Answer; you don't. Ergo, you cannot say that physical laws are designed or not. Your preconception that logic must be god is exactly that, a baseless preconception.

Mark

Edited by mark24, : No reason given.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 10:14 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 295 of 297 (418471)
08-28-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Rob
08-28-2007 1:11 AM


Re: Perspectives on God
Rob:

How could God have begotton a Son who is eternal?
[...]
He is eternal. So if God begets God... then He begets that which is exactly Like Him.

Something which has a beginning, then.

A beginning is what 'begat' refers to.

___


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 1:11 AM Rob has not yet responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 296 of 297 (418480)
08-28-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Rob
08-28-2007 1:11 AM


Re: Perspectives on God
Rob writes:

It's rather crude, but I imagine God as a cell. When He multiplies He simply mulitplies...

1 X 1 = 1

Or 1 X 1 + 1 = {3 in 1} (in the not very logical mathematics of the bible).

If God is like a cell, then he multiplies into lots of cells.

So now you're a polytheist, Rob, which means you believe in multiple undesigned realities. No wonder you sound so confused about everything.

A point you haven't explained is why you appear to be a supporter of the I.D. movement, yet you insist that reality is undesigned. You can't have it both ways.

I.D. claims that aspects of God (reality by your definition) are designed. In the "Rob" theology, that should be sacrilege.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 1:11 AM Rob has not yet responded

AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1876
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 297 of 297 (418499)
08-28-2007 2:06 PM


Thus sayeth the Mod
....And it came to pass that the 300 post limit approacheth, and it was well neigh time to put the post to rest.

Thanks for all of your observations, beliefs, and opinions.

I am sure we shall all meet again in another topic at another time.

It Is Finished.



What Is A Discussion Board Anyway?

  • New Topics should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Keep them short and don't attempt to explain your entire point in the first post. Allow others to respond so that you can expand your discussion.
  • If you are warned by an administrator or moderator for any reason that is not explained in the Forum Guidelines you can argue your case here.
  • If you are not promoted, feel free to discuss your reasons with the administrator in the Proposed New Topics Forum who responded to your topic proposal. Feel free to edit and modify your topic and inform the administrator that you have done so.
    You may also take your argument here and get feedback from other administrators.
    Usually, we leave topic promotion to the first administrator that responds, unless that administrator invites others to comment.

    ************************************
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    AdminPhat


  •   
    RewPrev1
    ...
    1516171819
    20
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018