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Author Topic:   ERV's: Evidence of Common Ancestory
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 46 of 166 (419165)
09-01-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Refpunk
09-01-2007 11:35 AM


You cannot be very tall
Refpunk

Again, since evolutionists deny everything we creationists say about evolution, then they deny their own theory and have no theory left. So far, evolutionists have denied:

1) The claim that monkeys bred human descendants

Of course we deny that which is blatantly incorrect like this first statement.

2) The claim that monkeys turned into human descendants

Yet, again, you are ignorant of the facts.

3) The claim that the fit survive because they also have said that no one can define "fit".

I furnished you with a quote from Charles Darwin himself and you still show no understanding of the concept nor have you even made mention of the quote.I shall reiterate it that you might dwell on what it means.

It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.

Do try to figure it out will you?


"The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss."

Thomas Carlyle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Refpunk, posted 09-01-2007 11:35 AM Refpunk has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4742
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 47 of 166 (419171)
09-01-2007 12:13 PM


Topic Warning
Stay on the topic of ERV's.

Next off topic post by anyone (after enough time to read this -- 10 mins) is suspended for 8 hours.

Edited by AdminNosy, : correct the author


  
Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 1022 days)
Posts: 6202
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 48 of 166 (419187)
09-01-2007 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Refpunk
09-01-2007 9:46 AM


Off-topic, and already answered. Two strikes in one post!
First it presupposes that only the fit survive which is a blatant falsehood since the fit and unfit always co-exist in every single species.

This was already answered in another thread.

Is this going to be a regular tactic? When your statements are shown to be silly, to go to another thread and repeat them as if nothing happened?


I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders
This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4742
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 49 of 166 (419191)
09-01-2007 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Chiroptera
09-01-2007 1:11 PM


off topic
mmmm, I'm debating whether or not this counts as the off topic post I was warning about. It's border line.

No suspension but go sit in the corner for 15 minutes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Chiroptera, posted 09-01-2007 1:11 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12776
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 50 of 166 (419238)
09-01-2007 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Refpunk
09-01-2007 11:35 AM


Re: A suggestion to Refpunk
Again, since evolutionists deny everything we creationists say about evolution, then they deny their own theory ...

Listen carefully. Our theory is the theory which we have. It is not the putrid, rancid nonsense that you made up in your head, which you call "the theory of evolution", and which I would call a steaming pile of **** which creationists made up in their heads.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Refpunk
Member (Idle past 2495 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 08-17-2007


Message 51 of 166 (419271)
09-01-2007 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by sidelined
09-01-2007 12:01 PM


Re: You cannot be very tall
Since I claim that evolutionists claim that apes bred human descendants or turned into humans and you deny it, and you claim I'm wrong, then you have no theory left. So thanks for proving evolution a hoax, and by your own words. It can't get any better than that.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-01-2007 10:03 PM Refpunk has not yet responded
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-01-2007 10:09 PM Refpunk has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 166 (419277)
09-01-2007 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Refpunk
09-01-2007 9:45 PM


Re: You cannot be very tall
Are you even aware that monkeys and apes aren't the same thing?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Refpunk, posted 09-01-2007 9:45 PM Refpunk has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12776
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 53 of 166 (419279)
09-01-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Refpunk
09-01-2007 9:45 PM


Re: You cannot be very tall
Since I claim that evolutionists claim that apes bred human descendants or turned into humans and you deny it and you claim I'm wrong...

You are a liar. No-one has denied this.

... then you have no theory left ...

Well, this lie overlooks the fact that we still have the theory of evolution, which is correct.

So thanks for proving evolution a hoax, and by your own words.

You are a liar, which is why you cannot quote anyone "proving" that "evolution is a hoax" in their "own words".

It can't get any better than that.

Well, from your point of view, nothing could be better then you wallowing in your stupid froth of scummy filthy lies.

From my point of view, it could get better. You could lie less often.


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Replies to this message:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1695
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 54 of 166 (419694)
09-04-2007 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Dr Adequate
09-01-2007 10:09 PM


Re: You cannot be very tall
Dr.Adequate, calling other members a liar is a bit too extreme and not in the spirit of our Forum Guidelines.
Sentences such as
Dr.Adequate writes:

Well, from your point of view, nothing could be better then you wallowing in your stupid froth of scummy filthy lies.

From my point of view, it could get better. You could lie less often.

are a wee bit too disrespectful.
The topic is summarized here:
Loudmouth writes:

In summary, ERV's are a potent test of common ancestry between species. Commonalities between ERV's in separate species is easily explained by simple heredity of a mutation. The chances of an ERV occurring at the same letter of DNA in separate genomes is extremely improbable due to the random nature of retrovirus insertion and the rarity of ERV production. The insinuation by some in the creationist movement that ERV's are the fingerprints of design is not supported, nor is it substantiated by any data. ERV's are random mutations and viral in origin.

Let us commence with the discussion! :)


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BeagleBob
Member (Idle past 2120 days)
Posts: 81
Joined: 11-21-2007


Message 55 of 166 (436012)
11-24-2007 3:33 AM


Generally people tend to overlook the fact that ERV remnants are found in identical locations in the genome. When I look at the Creationist/ID interpretation of the data the responses range from vague ("Similarity doesn't mean relationship!") to the fact that they conveniently ignore the identical insertion loci fact ("Hey two animals can have the same mutation without being related!").

EVR remnants are one of the best and most direct evidences for common descent, and it's quite frustrating to have to deal with people who blatantly ignore evidence (though this could be from my bias as a geneticist. When it comes to C14 or other things at the very least Creationists try to rationalize and throw up a wall of tripe. You can tear down tripe, you can fight tripe, you can even stew it in delicious broth until tender.

But when it comes to ERVs you can't make much progress in dispute... you can't debate someone who's tuned themselves out from facts.

In any case, if anyone can provide direct sources on ERVs I'd be much obliged. I can look them up at the university networks on Monday.


  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 61
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006


Message 56 of 166 (438205)
12-03-2007 11:25 AM


ERV's ?
I'm not sure I fully understand the significance of ERV's.. I read your intro post and I'm just checking to see if I got this right :

1. ERV's are viruses that have entered a hosts cells a long long time ago (say millions of years or longer).

2. These viruses have managed to attach themselves to the hosts DNA at a place.. This place is so unique that for another virus to attach to the same spot in its DNA, would be a gigantically low chance of around 0.001 %

3. through sexual reproduction, this virus has spreaded but through a mutation or other cause this virus has not been able to harm the host.

4. over generations, speciation occurs, new species form and the virus with them.

5. through analysing which species has that virus on that exact spot, scientists can determine which of the species have a close common ancestor together.. All the factors together make it nearly impossible to draw any other conclusion then these species having a common ancestor.

Am I right in all what I just said?

as for Refpunk.. You made up a version of the theory of evolution which is not the one used by scientists.. Of course scientists and evolutionists won't support it.. This doesn't mean the theory is bunk.. It means what you made up is bunk. Figure this.
If I say god is a potato with wings and thats why I think it is silly for creationists to believe in him.. And you say thats not what god is. I would say that thats why god is fairytale because you can't support him..
Do you see how this sounds, I'm making up nonsense about something just like you did and then saying if you don't support it, then god is bunk just as you said that if we don't support your nonsense, evolution is bunk.


    
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 396
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 57 of 166 (502459)
03-11-2009 4:30 PM


ERV pattern evidence proves evolution
I've noticed that when I have brought up ERV evidence in other threads that it is ignored by creationists.
I think ICANT was the only one to respond with the brief comment that he had a different interpretation of that evidence.

This thread is the place to show how that evidence does not prove evolution to be true. How do creationists dismiss ERV pattern evidence?
If creationists are a no show on this thread, I'll take that as an admission that they have no counter argument and that evolution is true.

Thanks.


Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 58 of 166 (502469)
03-11-2009 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by shalamabobbi
03-11-2009 4:30 PM


Re: ERV pattern evidence proves evolution
shalamabobbi writes:

I've noticed that when I have brought up ERV evidence in other threads that it is ignored by creationists.

No surprises! I've brought them up on a number of occasions, and noticed the same thing. So, a couple of times I've made provocative claims, like saying that they conclusively prove our common ancestry with the apes (and monkeys) on their own without need for other evidence. No creationist has bitten.

Elsewhere (not on EvC), the best attempt I've heard of was a suggestion by a creationist that there are "hotspots" on the genome in which they insert themselves, but that's easily dealt with (I'll do it if someone takes up your challenge).

Here's a funny illustration of how the problems and implications of ERVs are essentially avoided.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n2/were-retroviruses-created-good

I love the title. (The ones that have actually clearly been selected for function were, of course, inserted by God at the moment of creation. ;))


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Taq
Member
Posts: 5230
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 59 of 166 (502669)
03-12-2009 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by bluegenes
03-11-2009 5:05 PM


Re: ERV pattern evidence proves evolution
Here's a funny illustration of how the problems and implications of ERVs are essentially avoided.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n2/were-retroviruses-created-good

That's a good example. Nowhere do they tackle the problem of the pattern of homology which is what points to evolution.

The aptly named blogger ERV (aka SA Smith) has a great section that deals with the common creationist claims relating to endogenous retroviruses:

Index to Common Creationist Claims about ERV's

She covers the claims dealing with origin, insertion, and function of ERV's in a very concise manner.


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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 396
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 60 of 166 (502846)
03-13-2009 4:59 PM


Looking for David to slay this Philistine..
Here is another list of creationist claims concerning ERVs.

http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2008/05/repost_creationist_claims_abou.php

Maybe it would be useful for us biology laymen as well as the creationists to hear the rigorous refutations to these various claims, spread out over time so that this thread can remain in the creationist's consciousness as something they apparently have to dismiss w/o rebuttal.

Creationists! Are there no Davids among you to slay this Philistine?


Replies to this message:
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