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Author Topic:   Converting raw energy into biological energy
jar
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Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 4 of 314 (419358)
09-02-2007 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
09-01-2007 7:23 PM


What is the relation?
Rob writes:

And I want to focus on the last bullet point of the excerpt above. What evidence is there that raw energy is able to catalyze biological processes?

The last bullet was:

quote:
• A metabolism that extracts raw materials from the environment as food and then changes it into energy."

What connection is there between your quote and your question?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 8 of 314 (419367)
09-02-2007 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rob
09-02-2007 1:16 PM


Re: What is the relation?
I did. I still have no idea what you are asking or what the relationship is between your quoted section and your question.

AbE: Found the link I wanted.

The instance you and Crashfrog are discussion is one that is fairly far along the line. There are also living things that use other sources of energy, things like the radiation from residual uranium in rock.

In this article they discuss bacteria that use radiation from decaying uranium to convert water into usable energy and that have been living below ground, away from the sun for several million years.

Edited by jar, : add link


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 15 of 314 (419374)
09-02-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rob
09-02-2007 1:57 PM


Re: What is the relation?

So did the radiation and the water create the bacteria?

I'm sorry but what does that have to do with the topic?

In case you missed it, the topic of this thread is "Converting raw energy into biological energy" and has NOTHING to do with creating bacteria.

Do you have anything related to the topic to contribute?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 27 of 314 (419386)
09-02-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rob
09-02-2007 2:09 PM


Re: What is the relation?
I did read the OP. I even quoted your direction:

Rob writes:

And I want to focus on the last bullet point of the excerpt above. What evidence is there that raw energy is able to catalyze biological processes?

which was related to:

quote:
• A metabolism that extracts raw materials from the environment as food and then changes it into energy."

I pointed out that your question was unrelated to the bulleted information and irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

I also provided a link to an example of bacteria that break down water using the radiation of decaying uranium and that live miles below the ground and have been isolated from the sun for millions of years.

The issue of creating life is totally irrelevant and unimportant to the topic in this thread.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 49 of 314 (419408)
09-02-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rob
09-02-2007 2:52 PM


on design
Why not consider all the options... both design and material?

If anyone ever presents any evidence of design that stands up to examination, then it will be considered.

Why not also consider magic and fairy dust?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
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Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 51 of 314 (419410)
09-02-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rob
09-02-2007 2:54 PM


read links Rob
rob writes:

But there is no such precursor found in the fossil record or anywhere else that I am aware of.

But you have been given links to at least one example of a creature that directly converts water to usable energy from just the natural decay of uranium in rocks.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
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Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
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Member Rating: 2.1


Message 70 of 314 (419453)
09-02-2007 11:15 PM


I don't understand what the issue is?
Looking at the chemical makeup of ATP, AMP and ADP I don't see anything particularly exotic or surprising. None of them are particularly complex molecules, and the conversions back and forth between the various molecules is pretty straightforward.

If we look back at hyperthermophiles like Archea we even find that they use sulphur instead of oxygen as the electron acceptor during respiration and so would have thrived in earlier oxygen deprived, sulphur rich environments.

The important point though is that in all cases what is seen is simply chemical reactions.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
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Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 76 of 314 (419460)
09-02-2007 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Rob
09-02-2007 11:45 PM


Re: I don't understand what the issue is?
So far all you have done is offer incredulity.

Do you have any problem when hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water?

Or hydrocarbons?

Or any other inorganic molecules?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 84 of 314 (419469)
09-03-2007 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by molbiogirl
09-03-2007 12:02 AM


What is so funny about Rob's position
is not just the fact that he has nothing but incredulity, but that the more we learn the less unique things like DNA appear. The recent discovery of inorganic molecules that evolve, reproduce, split into duplicate mirrored images, recombine to form new components and do so in the vast areas of space, show that not only is a mechanism similar to DNA possible, but it is also possible to occur naturally and even be based on cycles other than carbon. It even forms the same helical structures that we see in DNA.

Science Daily Article on inorganic dust with lifelike properties.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
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Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 92 of 314 (419478)
09-03-2007 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Rob
09-03-2007 12:39 AM


Re: What is so funny about Rob's position
What in the world does it have to do with ATP production by organic processes?

The relevance is that wholly natural processes can create complex molecules; molecules that combine, divide, reproduce, evolve; simple chemistry and physics. Organic is not even necessary.

Organic is just a label of convenience, denoting carbon based chemical reactions we classify as live. However, the more we learn the less the distinction between living and non-living forms appears.

In addition, plasma states happen to be pretty common. One example is lightning. Others are produced during meteor or comet strikes, also fairly common particularly during the early period of Earth's existence.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 96 of 314 (419482)
09-03-2007 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Rob
09-03-2007 1:05 AM


Re: What is so funny about Rob's position
Life in plasma eh? Who knows?

Perhaps the Burning Bush wasn't such a far fetch after all...

The Burning Bush is of course irrelevant and unimportant, just another nonsense attempt to bring in more of your preachifying.

The point is you have been shown examples of converting raw energy into biological energy, that complex molecules can form naturally, that there are examples of naturally occurring inorganic molecules that combine, split, recombine, evolve, form new combinations, form helixes similar to DNA.

So far all you have presented is your personal incredulity.

So other than your incredulity, what is the issue?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 99 of 314 (419485)
09-03-2007 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rob
09-03-2007 1:16 AM


Re: What is so funny about Rob's position
I've been shown none of the above... what I have been shown is a bunch of theorizing and speculation.

I'm sorry Rob but that is simply false. You have been provided with links and even claim to have read them. Folk can read through the thread and find the links themselves. So once again, other than your personal incredulity, what is the issue?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 109 of 314 (419523)
09-03-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by CK
09-03-2007 11:47 AM


on the irrelevant and non-issue of Chirality
Of course, in addition to being totally off topic and irrelevant, chirality is also not much of an issue. We had a thread not all that long ago discussing it and many of the routes through which it could develop.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 121 of 314 (419565)
09-03-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Rob
09-03-2007 2:45 PM


Re: a la Behe
Common ancestry could be a result of theorized evolutionary processes, or it could be the result of the theology of the common creator working within His created common environment using common materials.

Except there is evidence, abundant evidence of the "theorized evolutionary processes" and so far absolutely NO evidence of the common creator.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 157 of 314 (419621)
09-03-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Rob
09-03-2007 8:25 PM


Seti and Code: Important.
So what minimal kind of signal would SETI researchers need to find so as to infer adequately that it was sent by intelligence?

It would have to be a code that could not be explained by any natural process. Even then, it would only be accepted as possibly sent by intelligence.

If any natural method of creating the code can be demonstrated, then it must be listed as probably NOT from an intelligence.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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