Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Talk about Coffee?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 87 (420817)
09-09-2007 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Minnemooseus
09-09-2007 4:46 PM


On Fair Trade and Organic
Fair Trade coffee is a great thing.
The history of coffee is that in most of the world, coffee is still a family grown crop. Historically, many of these folk had no way to get their crops to market and so had to sell to them what had transportation. The growers usually got screwed.
Fair Trade movement is designed to see that the growers get a fair price for their produce.
Organic is a little different.
Most coffee is grown in pretty poor areas. These farmers really can't afford things like commercial fertilizer. It is only the big commercial factory growers that can afford anything other than organic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-09-2007 4:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by anastasia, posted 09-09-2007 5:17 PM jar has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 32 of 87 (420819)
09-09-2007 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
09-09-2007 5:09 PM


Re: On Fair Trade and Organic
jar writes:
Most coffee is grown in pretty poor areas. These farmers really can't afford things like commercial fertilizer. It is only the big commercial factory growers that can afford anything other than organic.
'Course, sticking a label of 'organic' on what was already organic probably allows folk to jack up prices? I wonder if that happens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 09-09-2007 5:09 PM jar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 33 of 87 (420820)
09-09-2007 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taz
09-09-2007 3:37 PM


Re: on decaf
Crashfrog and jar have been doing a kickass job of explaining things to you.
The following is an essay by co-founder of my former workplace. He's more passionate and knowledgeable about great food than anyone I have ever met or read.
The title is "Making More of Your Food: Thoughts on Becoming A Mindful Eater", and it is one of the best pieces of food writing I have ever read. This is what I read in the customer newsletter I picked up the day I walked into Zingerman's for the first time, and I realized that I simply HAD to work there. It was like Mecca for me.
Articles
Here's an excerpt:
How do you become an mindful eater? Pretend you're twelve and you're about to go for your first roller coaster ride. Say you're sixteen and on the verge of snagging the first really passionate kiss of your life. Or maybe you've finally arrived for your very first visit to Morocco after a lifetime of longing. Getting the idea? I'm looking for that level of enthusiasm, of excited, focused, almost fixated, attention, that level of open-minded consciousness, that makes it work.
Sound like more effort than you want to invest in your eating?
It's really not that hard. Look at it like a walk through the woods. Some people just see a whole lot of trees, a great deal of dirt and a big bunch of bugs and birds. Doesn't seem like you're missing out on anything. But, of course, you and I know that if you take the same stroll and really look, you'll see a wealth of fascinating flora and fauna. Which is real? Both. But it's up to each of us to decide what we want to take out of our experience. Life goes on either way. But having now taken the time and energy to appreciate the complexities of flavor in my food, I don't want to go back to the dark dining days of my youth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Taz, posted 09-09-2007 3:37 PM Taz has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 34 of 87 (420821)
09-09-2007 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
09-09-2007 3:47 PM


crashfrog writes:
I used to see it a lot at the Minnesota State Fair. Anybody else ever heard of this?
I thought I had heard of putting egg shells in the brewer, or salt as before mentioned, for the same purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 09-09-2007 3:47 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 87 (420822)
09-09-2007 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Minnemooseus
09-09-2007 4:46 PM


Re: on decaf
I remember Cafe Mam. It was served in the coffee shop in which I hung out long ago.
Cafe Mam is associated with a particular cooperative in southern Mexico. If someone wants a little more variety, Google picked up people who sell organic, fair trade coffee from around the world.
Of course, if someone was seriously green, then they'd buy the "local" Mexican coffee rather than have their coffee transported clear 'round the world, spewing green house gases in the process.

I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-09-2007 4:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 87 (420827)
09-09-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by nator
09-09-2007 5:01 PM


Re: On Ethiopian
I love the Ethiopians. The Sidamo region is one, but there are many others and Yirgacheffe, as one example, is a sub-region in Sidamo. The others are Harrar, Kimssa and Limu. Each of them will have distinctive characteristics and styles.
In all of them there are also dry processed beans and wet processed beans.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by nator, posted 09-09-2007 5:01 PM nator has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 37 of 87 (420829)
09-09-2007 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
09-09-2007 3:31 PM


Re: on decaf
It's just a free-association trick, basically. That's what the wine guys are doing when they talk about "a floral nose (smell), with an oakey yet fruity body." Or "chocolatey overtones." The wine doesn't have any chocolate or flowers or peaches in it. It's just what the guy was reminded of.
In a way you are correct. Most wines, aside from abominations like Boone's farm and the like, do not have any fruit (besides grapes, obviously) or chocolate or flowers in them. Where you are wrong, however, is that the flavors and scents present in wines are not just there through free association. There are dozens of different kinds of grapes and they all have distinctive characteristics which can taste similar to other things such as fruits, grass, clover, etc. The taste of the grapes also depends on when it is harvested - early harvested grapes usually have a more tart, citrusy flavor and later harvested grapes are usually much sweeter and give off a honey flavor, with varyiances in between (some wines even have the associative terms on the bottles. For example, Trockenberenauslese would be on bottles of German/Austrian dessert wines that are picked at the very last minute possible). Exposure to the sun also plays a part in this and one learns to get a sense of whether the grapes come from a hotter or colder climate ("hot" wines generally have more alcohol since there are more sugars to convert due to extra ripening in the sun and when you smell a "hot" wine it actually "smells hot.") (another cool way to determine the alcohol content is to tip the glass and look at how big the meniscus is - the bigger the rim, the more alcohol it has).
Also very important in the flavor profile of wine is the type of soil the grapes are planted in. You can actually taste, smell or feel (as in the case of minerality, especially iron) the limestone, chalk, iron, etc. The grapes also sometimes soak up elements in the soil from previously grown crops and natural fertilizers, such as manure (which is described as "barnyard"). Not every wine is crafted well enough to bring out these characteristics. I especially love wines cultivatd in iron-rich soil because of the mouth feel...raw, almost (and here is where free assocation comes in) like the feeling you got after you stuck a 9-volt battery on your tongue as a child.
Finally, the fermentation process adds its own characteristics, like the oak you mentioned. The types of barrels used to ferment the wine are usually oak or stainless steel. Some winemakers use new wood, some use charred wood, and even the country of origin is important. For instance, French wood is associated with vanilla and American wood is associated with dill. Stainless steel doesn't necessarily impart a metallic characteristic, but it makes the wine seem crisper or cleaner. How long a wine has aged (either in the barrels or in the bottles) also has alot to do with taste and color (older reds usually fade into a more orange color and whites get more gold).
This isn't it, either. So many things affects how wine tastes, smells and feels.
To get back on topic, I would assume that the soil and climate that the beans are grown in also have alot to do with how the coffee tastes, but since coffee has such a strong flavor of its own it is probably less detectable except in the case of bitterness. Preparation of the beans should also play a part, especially how they are rosated and in what(?). I'd have to look into it more.
Carry on

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 09-09-2007 3:31 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 09-09-2007 6:04 PM Jaderis has replied
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 09-09-2007 6:25 PM Jaderis has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 87 (420836)
09-09-2007 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jaderis
09-09-2007 5:35 PM


On tones, fruit and chocolate
To get back on topic, I would assume that the soil and climate that the beans are grown in also have alot to do with how the coffee tastes, but since coffee has such a strong flavor of its own it is probably less detectable except in the case of bitterness. Preparation of the beans should also play a part, especially how they are rosated and in what(?). I'd have to look into it more.
Yes, soil, light, rainfall and all the other variables come into play.
We also see the same year to year and crop to crop variations that you see in wines.
BUT ...
things like fruitiness, blueberry flavor, chocolates, woddiness, grassiness and many other things really can be present in coffees.
Not too long ago I was putting on a mini tasting for some friends. I had a bunch of pods for them to try and they were simply told to try to describe the things they noticed.
It was surprising but each of them recognized the Blueberry in the Ethiopians, the Chocolates in the Yemen Mocha and the bright acidity of the Tanzanian Peaberry.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jaderis, posted 09-09-2007 5:35 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jaderis, posted 09-09-2007 6:08 PM jar has replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 39 of 87 (420837)
09-09-2007 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
09-09-2007 6:04 PM


Re: On tones, fruit and chocolate
things like fruitiness, blueberry flavor, chocolates, woddiness, grassiness and many other things really can be present in coffees.
Is that through adulteration or are the flavors naturally present (ABE: or genetically manipulated) in various beans? I always assumed that flavored coffees have other ingredients added to the beans.
Edited by Jaderis, : No reason given.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 09-09-2007 6:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 09-09-2007 6:19 PM Jaderis has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 87 (420839)
09-09-2007 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
09-09-2007 5:09 PM


Re: On taste.
except that Miles Davis plays the trumpet, not the saxophone.
Haha! Well, that's why I'm a foodie who listens to techno.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by nator, posted 09-09-2007 5:09 PM nator has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 87 (420840)
09-09-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jaderis
09-09-2007 6:08 PM


Re: On tones, fruit and chocolate
Is that through adulteration or are the flavors naturally present (ABE: or genetically manipulated) in various beans? I always assumed that flavored coffees have other ingredients added to the beans.
There is a difference between "flavored coffees" and the flavors of natural coffees.
None of these are flavored. The actual beans themselves can have very different characteristics with as much variety as you find between wines.
Many of the Island coffees, Kona or Jamaican or Sumatran seem to exhibit a chocolaty character. Beans grown at higher elevations seem to be more acidic than those grown a lower elevations. The Ethiopians are renowned for their fruity tones, particularly a very pronounced blueberry flavor.
These will of course very between crops and years as well as processing. I find the dry processed beans often have more character than the wet processed ones.
But again, varietal coffees will vary greatly.
I'll get to blends later maybe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jaderis, posted 09-09-2007 6:08 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Jaderis, posted 09-09-2007 6:27 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 87 (420842)
09-09-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jaderis
09-09-2007 5:35 PM


Re: on decaf
Where you are wrong, however, is that the flavors and scents present in wines are not just there through free association. There are dozens of different kinds of grapes and they all have distinctive characteristics which can taste similar to other things such as fruits, grass, clover, etc.
That is, of course, true. The flavors they're detecting are real, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
But a lot of beginning tasters feel like they're doing it "wrong", if they don't use "the right words", and I was just trying to get the point across that, while wine tasters have sort of hit on a certain vocabulary to describe wine flavors, it's really just a matter of connecting the flavors to other things that you've tasted.
(another cool way to determine the alcohol content is to tip the glass and look at how big the meniscus is - the bigger the rim, the more alcohol it has).
Back in the day, I was told this was called "legs."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jaderis, posted 09-09-2007 5:35 PM Jaderis has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 43 of 87 (420843)
09-09-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
09-09-2007 6:19 PM


Re: On tones, fruit and chocolate
Interesting, jar, thanks
I am not much of a coffee drinker (except for the occasional shot of espresso poured over milk chocolates to melt and shoot. Mmmmmm...
I think it stems from my dislike of milk/cream and I could never really get into black coffee no matter how much sugar I put in it (altho I have been known to force it down in late-night diners).
I prefer tea.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 09-09-2007 6:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 09-09-2007 6:33 PM Jaderis has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 87 (420844)
09-09-2007 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jaderis
09-09-2007 6:27 PM


Re: On tones, fruit and chocolate
I prefer tea.
I like teas as well. Back in an earlier life I used to put on wine, tea and coffee tastings for folk visiting on Hilton Head Island. Maybe we can do a similar thread on teas.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jaderis, posted 09-09-2007 6:27 PM Jaderis has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 87 (420847)
09-09-2007 6:53 PM


On Brewing
Espresso is not a particular type of coffee or even a particular roast. Espresso can be a light to dark roast and just about any type of bean from any region.
Espresso is way of making the coffee.
To make espresso you need a very fine grind. The coffee is fairly tightly packed. Then steam is forced through the grounds.
The result is espresso.
Regular coffee is usually best brewed by running water at between 192-196 degrees F through it. The time that the water stays in contact with the grounds is also important, a finer grind usually takes less brew time than a coarser grind.
Many folk think that the best coffee is when the water makes one pass through the grounds. Percolators make multiple passes through the grounds and so a coarser grind works best there.
Other brewers like the Mr. Coffee model flood the grounds and then control brew time by the porosity of the filter paper.
The pod and Kcup brewers are a single pass system. The coffees are usually ground just slightly coarser than espresso grind. Some like the OPOD can do one or more "brew pauses" where it runs a small amount of water through, then pauses for a second or so, then resumes.
The big advantage of the Single Serve models is precise control over the grind, the amount of coffee, the temperature and volume of water and the brew time.
There are other methods. One popular method is the French Press. It is a glass cylinder. You add grounds, pour in boiling water, wait a few and then push down a plunger that has a built in screen. That pushes most of the grounds to the bottom.
It makes great coffee but is harder to clean up and lots of grounds always seem to get through.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024