Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8842 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-20-2018 6:38 PM
291 online now:
dwise1, jar, Percy (Admin), Tangle, xongsmith (5 members, 286 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: MrTim
Post Volume:
Total: 834,008 Year: 8,831/29,783 Month: 1,078/1,977 Week: 216/380 Day: 49/51 Hour: 2/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3456
...
21NextFF
Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 13.0
AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 312 (424843)
09-28-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Omnivorous
09-28-2007 10:26 PM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
Omni, Jar's false and meanspirited comments were not about Faith's conduct and/or forum but clearly for the purpose of airing insults to the Biblical creationist constituency at large, past and present on the EvC board. He has been engaging in this sort of conduct for too long with impunity and it's time for it to be corrected so as to make this site one which all members are treated in a respectful manner.

Regarding my rare usage of lie rather than falsehood, I've already addressed that in my last message. This is one case where it is quite obvious that the blatant falsehood was deliberate aimed at demeaning all Biblical counterpart members of the EvC debates both past and present.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Omnivorous, posted 09-28-2007 10:26 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Omnivorous, posted 09-28-2007 11:07 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 19 by Rob, posted 09-29-2007 2:35 AM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 21 by anglagard, posted 09-29-2007 4:24 AM AdminBuzsaw has responded
 Message 23 by RickJB, posted 09-29-2007 7:05 AM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1730 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 17 of 312 (424844)
09-28-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AdminBuzsaw
09-28-2007 10:40 PM


Re: Jar
This has been the case for quite some time now.

that's nice. where is this amazing information stored so that we may know it instead of having you hover it over our heads like some delicious pavlovian treat?

Thus there is no longer a necessity of informing regarding suspensions in separate thread by moderators as I understand it.

except, you know, public record.

I'm right and that not all Biblicalist creationists debate on emotion alone as the statement clearly implied.

they do so disingenuously.

Thus the rare usage of the "L" word which I rarely ever apply to anyone.

rare or not, it's against forum rules.

I don't see how this can be brushed off as a mistake when it was quite obviously a deliberate lie, given the messenger knew full well that it was a meanspirited falsehood aimed at Biblical creationists.

no, it isn't.

1. I would appreciate it if you would stop describing my action as whining when in fact it was Admin himself who obviously agreed with it by his action and his reason for the action.

that's nice. i'm sure it's not the first time percy's been wrong.

I have learned to be thick skinned here

**if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all...**

but you have admitted that perhaps I was right

omg!! i said maybe. omg you're so right i'm an idiot wtf?
you're amazing. really.

and I think you are being quite disrespectful and disingenuous

that's nice. but then you've never really demonstrated anything i think deserves respect.

not to mention that you are by doing so implicating Admin as a whiner as well

no. you used your admin mode to call a poster a liar. i'm calling you a whiner because it was a personal protest and one in violation of forum guidelines.

Just like Jar, you are lumping all of the Biblical creationist input here at EvC in one lump

um, what? i said you're being inappropriate. i also said that christianity takes it's direction and information and authority from the bible. therefore the only argument christians can make about the religion are from authority and NOTHING ELSE. if you can't comprehend that, then i'm sorry.

A number of Biblical creationists over the years including myself have applied a whole lot more to many debates than simply god did it, emotion and Biblical authority.

they've done so inappropriately.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-28-2007 10:40 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 769 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 18 of 312 (424845)
09-28-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw
09-28-2007 10:57 PM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
:laugh:


Real things always push back.
-William James

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-28-2007 10:57 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3651 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 19 of 312 (424860)
09-29-2007 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw
09-28-2007 10:57 PM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
Buzz:
Jar's false and meanspirited comments were not about Faith's conduct and/or forum but clearly for the purpose of airing insults to the Biblical creationist constituency at large, past and present on the EvC board. He has been engaging in this sort of conduct for too long with impunity and it's time for it to be corrected so as to make this site one which all members are treated in a respectful manner.

Clearly indeed, but far............. too late to mean much of anything.

All it does is set a precedent to give further umpunity in the future.

They set the rules Buzz, so you cannot but fall into their hands no matter what you do...

It's a stacked deck... and they win!

My two bits worth anyway...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-28-2007 10:57 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by CTD, posted 09-29-2007 3:28 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 3671 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 20 of 312 (424869)
09-29-2007 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Rob
09-29-2007 2:35 AM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
It's a stacked deck... and they win!

Caution friend. They've misdefined enough terms; don't let them sell you their concept of victory as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Rob, posted 09-29-2007 2:35 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 21 of 312 (424876)
09-29-2007 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw
09-28-2007 10:57 PM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
Buzsaw writes:

Omni, Jar's false and meanspirited comments were not about Faith's conduct and/or forum but clearly for the purpose of airing insults to the Biblical creationist constituency at large, past and present on the EvC board. He has been engaging in this sort of conduct for too long with impunity and it's time for it to be corrected so as to make this site one which all members are treated in a respectful manner.

Would it be possible for you or Percy to point out exactly what you consider "false and meanspirited" comments so that others can seek to live under your rules? I have been looking around and I can't seem to be able to discern exactly what caused a one week suspension.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-28-2007 10:57 PM AdminBuzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-29-2007 9:08 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12552
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 22 of 312 (424904)
09-29-2007 6:53 AM


Clarification on Jar
First, about the little suspension icon (), as was noted above, if you hover your cursor over this icon, a hover box will pop up explaining the reasons for the suspension. This explanation will be whatever text the acting moderator typed into a text box, and it can include links to messages and so forth. Hopefully the acting moderator identifies himself, because the software does not, as of today, automatically provide that identification. This will be remedied in dBoard 3.0

My intention when I added this icon was that it would alleviate the need for announcing suspensions in the bannings and suspensions thread, especially since one can also get a list of all currently suspended members on the members page, but most moderators have continued this practice, and that may still be a good idea, I'm actually not sure. Because of the availability of the suspension icon I've become very spotty about posting announcements about suspensions.

Another feature coming with dBoard 3.0 will be maintaining a history of suspensions for each member account.

About Jar's suspension, declarations like this that seemed outside the flow of discussion have caused me concern for a long time. This is from Jar's Message 15:

jar writes:

The problem is that Biblical Christianity and Biblical Creationism cannot be defended or justified using reason, logic or reality. They can only resort to emotion and invective, that is all they have.

To deny them those few remaining methods of defense of their position, you create a situation where they cannot make their best defense of their arguments, or any defense as a matter of fact.

The issue for me isn't whether this is true or false, but that it works against our goal of maintaining civil dialogue here. Both creationists and evolutionists should treat the other side as the honest and respected opposition, not as hysterics, or any number of other provocative labels we often see coming from members, such as naive, delusional, liar, etc. Think whatever you like inside, but overt expressions should be civil.

I viewed Jar's post as just yet another regrettable expression lying on the border of a Forum Guidelines violation that makes moderators jobs more difficult, but it didn't seem like suspension material. But Jar's challenging and dismissive reply to AdminBuzsaw in Message 23 seemed to me, when combined with his pattern of similar responses and with his not taking to heart any of my several low-level cautions over the past months, sufficient to justify a suspension, if for no other reason to make clear my determination to maintain civility here.

Some might remember Scott Page, a published academic who eventually ceased participating here because of frequent suspensions. His explanation for his behavior was that he used to respond to creationists with careful and lengthy explanations containing a great deal of reliable and verified information, but after experience taught him that this did no good he began to frequently resort to insult and invective. I think he had set his goals too high because he didn't see exchanges such as take place here as an ongoing process, but rather as something from which meaningful progress in the form of creationists converted to evolution should emerge, which, of course, almost never happens. In other words, he became too frustrated to participate in a civil manner.

The same may to a small extent have happened to Jar, for in my view he too often takes the opportunity to express his conclusions about creationists, which independent of their truth or falsity is usually not the topic of discussion, and even worse, is provocative in a way that distracts from the topic and makes discussion more difficult.

Jar is a valued member of EvC Forum of longstanding who has made significant contributions as both member, moderator and technical contributor. I can't stress how much I appreciate his efforts. His suspension will I hope be interpreted by him not as personal and not as any judgement that he is wrong, but as merely reflecting the fact that no two people's visions are going to match precisely, and that this is just one minor issue that we don't happen to see the same way.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-29-2007 9:31 AM Admin has not yet responded
 Message 26 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-29-2007 10:50 AM Admin has not yet responded
 Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-30-2007 7:30 PM Admin has not yet responded
 Message 85 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-03-2007 4:30 PM Admin has not yet responded

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 2792 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 23 of 312 (424908)
09-29-2007 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw
09-28-2007 10:57 PM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
Jar writes:

I do not think it is possible for Faith or any other Biblical Creationist to behave other than as Faith behaves. The problem is that Biblical Christianity and Biblical Creationism cannot be defended or justified using reason, logic or reality. They can only resort to emotion and invective, that is all they have.

This not a lie. At the very worst it is a strong opinion that contains much truth.

It is demonstrably true that Biblical Creationism cannot be defended or justified using reason, logic or reality. This entire site is proof of this fact. We've heard of post-flood super-macro-evolution, dinosaurs on the Ark, rock formations that defy gravity, global scientific conspiracies to discredit Christians and we still have no defintion of exactly what a "kind" is!

Jar's ban is totally out of order.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-28-2007 10:57 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Fosdick, posted 09-29-2007 7:59 PM RickJB has not yet responded

AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 312 (424926)
09-29-2007 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by anglagard
09-29-2007 4:24 AM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
anglagard writes:

Would it be possible for you or Percy to point out exactly what you consider "false and meanspirited" comments so that others can seek to live under your rules? I have been looking around and I can't seem to be able to discern exactly what caused a one week suspension.

To perpetrate this lie that the only methodology of Biblical creationists on this board is emotion and Biblical authority is flat out blatant falsehood which has been parroted adnausium and as administrative moderator on behalf of Biblical creationists I think it's high time to confront the ongoing problem so as to insure that the respect required in Forum Guidelines item 10 is extended to all members alike.

I myself have applied the thermodynamic scientific laws, fulfilled prophecy, pages of logic and reason, archeological data including extensive Exodus research etc, etc. Others have also used other than emotion and Biblical authority alone in the debates.

Why is it that all the secularist moderators do their moderating with ease and everything's hunkydory but I so much as whisper a warning and I must leave all the threads I participate in and waste my time addressing this horrendous massive protest of my puny little actions by you evo people?

I'm off to church out of town for the day. Good day to all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by anglagard, posted 09-29-2007 4:24 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 312 (424927)
09-29-2007 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Admin
09-29-2007 6:53 AM


Re: Clarification on Jar
After my own review of this situation and the actions taken by the moderators, I shall offer my critique:

Jar has always had the strong opinion, (logically sound, by the way) that Biblical Creationism is unsupportable.

I could even go so far as to say that I believe he is right in that regard.

Jar was actually supporting Faiths right to be illogical.

Percy, it seems, was simply reminding Jar to be polite to Buzsaw....those two have duked it out for years, and Buz perceives Jar as mean.

I know Jar and his style, and have no perception of meanness from him.

I am usually too much of an easygoing Mod (some say wimp) to suspend anybody for emotionally charged interactions such as these....but if I were doing the suspension, I would have given Jar a day at the most! Keep in mind, however, that I let Nemesis slide the other day for challenging Jar. Thus, I am being consistent by doing nothing. :)

Boss, I share your respect of Jar, and have nothing further to say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Admin, posted 09-29-2007 6:53 AM Admin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-29-2007 2:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1730 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 26 of 312 (424935)
09-29-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Admin
09-29-2007 6:53 AM


Re: Clarification on Jar
Both creationists and evolutionists should treat the other side as the honest and respected opposition, not as hysterics, or any number of other provocative labels we often see coming from members, such as naive, delusional, liar, etc.

you mean like..

To perpetrate this lie

i think he means perpetuate, but in either case...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Admin, posted 09-29-2007 6:53 AM Admin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-29-2007 8:51 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5514
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 27 of 312 (424958)
09-29-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
09-29-2007 9:31 AM


Re: Clarification on Jar
Jar has always had the strong opinion, (logically sound, by the way) that Biblical Creationism is unsupportable.

Perhaps it doesn't, but if this forum were about phrenology, and somebody claimed that phrenology was just stupid, then we'd have nothing left to discuss, now would we? Why lose sight of the expressed purpose of this forum? Creation vs evolution is the dominant theme. You know as well as I do that this site would lose all appeal without both parties interjecting with their opinions.

Of course one side is going to attempt present evidence why the other side is wrong, but Percy is right that there needs to be a measure of civility. Jar often pushes those boundaries. Its gotten so bad that I don't see any reason in exchanging commentary with Jar. He seems like he just wants to fight, rather than actually discuss something. I don't want any part of that, so I've opted to invent my own ignore button.

I know Jar and his style, and have no perception of meanness from him. I am usually too much of an easygoing Mod (some say wimp) to suspend anybody for emotionally charged interactions such as these.

No offense, but you are his doormat. The exchanges between you two remind of "battered wives syndrome." He treats you with total disrespect and you come rushing in to his defense. Sheesh. :)

Keep in mind, however, that I let Nemesis slide the other day for challenging Jar. Thus, I am being consistent by doing nothing.

Whew! By the skin o' my teeth.

In the final analysis, I don't think Jar should have been suspended for the comments he made without first having been issued a warning. Even seasoned veterans of EvC can get so wrapped up in debate that they lose sight of some sensibilities. But at the same time, this is habitual for Jar.

It doesn't really matter I suppose. Its done. And Moderator decision is final anyhow.


"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-29-2007 9:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Admin, posted 09-29-2007 3:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 29 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 09-29-2007 7:36 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12552
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 28 of 312 (424962)
09-29-2007 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Hyroglyphx
09-29-2007 2:56 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
nemesis_juggernaut writes:

It doesn't really matter I suppose. Its done. And Moderator decision is final anyhow.

If memory serves me correctly, I've been overruled and superseded a few times. I don't rule with quite the iron hand that some people seem to think. My intent is that all moderators have an equal voice. I concede that there are some things I hold as non-negotiable, but it's been rare that they've become an issue.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-29-2007 2:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 312 (424974)
09-29-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Hyroglyphx
09-29-2007 2:56 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
NJ writes:

In the final analysis, I don't think Jar should have been suspended for the comments he made without first having been issued a warning.

A warning is the only action I took, period. He was warned. His response, as usual rather than compliance was insultive badmouth to me the moderator within the Faith thread when he's been around long enough to know that moderator action is to be addressed in the proper forum in a respectful manner. How long do you think Randman, IAmJoseph, Rob, Faith etc would have gone after similar response to mod action without suspension? He figured, as usual that he was Jar, the invincible, not subject to the rules the rest of us are obliged to follow. Admin then saw fit to suspend which I think was fully justified, given the way Jar has treated all complaints about his disrespectful conduct towards his debate counterparts with impunity for years. He uses the threads to irritate and demean the Biblical creationist constituency with the same nonsense that makes you, me and others wanting to avoid him.

On the other hand the man has been a great asset to Percy and the tech aspects of running a board. As well, he's often been the johnny-on-the-spot in the past when anyone including Biblicalists like me needed internet tech help with the computer etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-29-2007 2:56 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-29-2007 8:10 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3302 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 30 of 312 (424976)
09-29-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by RickJB
09-29-2007 7:05 AM


Re: Two half wrongs aren't half right.
RickJB writes:

Jar's ban is totally out of order.


I strongly agree. It smacks of undercover work by the Fundies.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by RickJB, posted 09-29-2007 7:05 AM RickJB has not yet responded

  
Prev1
2
3456
...
21NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018